Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
2018-Aug-16 02:32

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Shoutbox

Den:
Aug. 14 2018 - 5:00pm
do as i say
Den:
Aug. 13 2018 - 3:13am
wasssuup

Recent Posts

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 10
1
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by Den on Yesterday at 10:34 PM »
Code: [Select]
BEAKL PLLT x1

 iuo  wmdn
ye_ag hrtsp
 , .   lcf

Same finger is not bad. Here only U on same key as SPACE. Below it is reserved for UP arrow.

KLAtest I just made the thumb score almost as bad as pinky. now you can see the difference in finger usage versus space on thumb.

2
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by iandoug on Yesterday at 07:00 PM »
brewing a combination pinkyless + low thumb usage.

Thumb use probably too high for you. But does better than X7.1 on at least some of the inputs. (Klatest scoring)

Work in progress. Don't laugh about the Shift keys ... was only thing that worked.

I think in some of the CLP/Essie layouts we had space on right middle or somesuch, which created enormous problems about what to put above and below, to avoid high same-finger.
Net result was that those keys became effectively underused.

So am not sure that taking space off thumb will be ideal.

3
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by Den on 2018-Aug-14 16:59 »
Can you clarify re digits? (apart from numpad). You want separate row for digits? But digits only, no puncts on them?

thanks, Ian

A row above the letters. It's kind of far, but you don't need to shift to type the numbers. Putting puncs there would require extra shift and extra distance, so putting puncs on number row is far from ideal.
4
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by iandoug on 2018-Aug-14 16:20 »

3. Fewest keys to cover ASCII visible characters.  95 keys to start. but digits will be accessed on numpad or number row. So only need 85 chars. so need 29 keys with 3 layers, or 22 keys with 4 layers.


Can you clarify re digits? (apart from numpad). You want separate row for digits? But digits only, no puncts on them?

thanks, Ian
5
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by Den on 2018-Aug-14 09:11 »
In terms of "Ian theory", (for lack of a better term), the Direction of Travel for thumb keys is All Wrong. The natural motion for us chimpanzees with opposable thumbs is towards the palm, not at right angles to the plane of the palm, although clearly that is also "doable", as anyone who has played thumb drums on their desk can confirm. Or keyboard users and pianists, for that matter :-)

One idea is to have the thumb area connected to the main board with a hinge. The hinge allows it to be adjusted from 0 to 90° (or more). Default state it looks flat to normal users. Advanced and ergonomic-conscious users can tilt to their desired angle.

6
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by iandoug on 2018-Aug-14 04:35 »
1. No pinkies for typing. One may reassign other utility functions, like editing or navigation.
2. Low thumb. Ideally 5% usage per thumb. so no space. Probably modifiers includiig shift and altgr, due to next point.
3. Fewest keys to cover ASCII visible characters.  95 keys to start. but digits will be accessed on numpad or number row. So only need 85 chars. so need 29 keys with 3 layers, or 22 keys with 4 layers.

Given these constraints, then, pinkyless suggests 22 keys on 4 layers. this is doable with just shift and altgr, the home block, plus two more keys per hand. probably home pinky and index inside column. (if making room for arrows on bottom left hand, left hand will also need another index inside key.)

This post may end up being quite long. Read twice. :-)

Coincidentally I've gone back to the drawing board as well, now that I've identified some issues with ErgoLinear 1 form factor.

1. Years ago when I first saw the Maltron boards, I thought the central numpad was a good idea. Suitable for both lefties and righties. So that got integrated into my thinking at some deep level.
Now however, having built one and tested it a bit, I feel that it's like trying to make a shoe that fits both feet. What seems like "good for either" is actually "good for neither".

I wanted a lefty-righty layout for possible selling purposes. However it would be better to have proper lefty designs, just like lefty scissors. One design does not suit both. And since I'm right-handed, the num pad goes back on the right.

I like to have a numpad for when I need it, and don't like extra separate ones.

2. Consequence: The F-keys, which were integrated into the central numpad, now need to come back. I use F2/F3/F4 quite a bit, the others hardly ever. But I accept that some other users/programs may use them a lot. On the plus side, they take over the 4th row so are much closer than on ANSI/ISO.

3. Consequence 2: the navigation buttons in the centre also suck. Same issues: in theory ambidextrous, in reality awkward. So I'm contemplating a joystick for the arrow keys. I think a playstation-style will maybe work better than an thumbpoint style, but it must be switches not potentiometers, and struggling to find that (and with decent switch life -- 10k presses ain't gonna cut it.)

4. Consequence 4: other nav keys also need to move. I need shift close to arrows (sorted), and ctrl-home or ctrl-end must also be easy. So should shift-home and shift-end. So have ended up with something similar/borrowed from Den's matrix layouts, but split between hands. The hand can drop down and work them with index and middle, while thumb can hit shift and pinky hit ctrl.

5. The two thumb keys next to each other were awkward, particularly turning the thumb in. So moved it down and out for more natural thumb movement.

6. Escape key moves to centre, and added Compose key. Don't know if the EMACs/Vim users use Escape, I know they complain about `~ key position.

7. Put backspace back in similar place to ANSI/ISO mainly due to muscle memory looking for it there. Put Delete in mirror spot on left, dunno if viable.

8. Layout now X7.1. I know the score on Klatest was good, but my mind is still not convinced that h on AltGr is such a good idea. Time will tell.

9. X7.1 actually goes quite a way to meeting your requirements above .... the pinky only has minor characters (except when programming C-style languages). To meet your requirements I think you will have to put all/most of the punctuation on AltGr and Shift-AltGr. I'll play around with designs like that in the next few days once I catch up with current tasks.

Screenshots of current thinking (work in progress), with gamepad style joystick and thumbstick style.

[Aside: still struggling with xkb to get it to do all I want, in particular putting the Function keys on the numpad, and menu/OS on the Escape key... xkb just doesn't like what I tell it. Must be some other config file overriding my instructions.]
7
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by Den on 2018-Aug-14 02:21 »
We did, see attached. Also
beakl-clp-0.en.matrix
seelpy-1-lowscore.en.ergolinear

The CLP/SC format actually overruses the thumbs, which is opposite of what we want. unfortunately hard to reduce thumb usage for these.

can there be a better balance?

brewing a combination pinkyless + low thumb usage.

1. No pinkies for typing. One may reassign other utility functions, like editing or navigation.

2. Low thumb. Ideally 5% usage per thumb. so no space. Probably modifiers includiig shift and altgr, due to next point.

3. Fewest keys to cover ASCII visible characters.  95 keys to start. but digits will be accessed on numpad or number row. So only need 85 chars. so need 29 keys with 3 layers, or 22 keys with 4 layers.

Given these constraints, then, pinkyless suggests 22 keys on 4 layers. this is doable with just shift and altgr, the home block, plus two more keys per hand. probably home pinky and index inside column. (if making room for arrows on bottom left hand, left hand will also need another index inside key.)

the main layer should hold the most common chars, including space, comma, and period. less common letters will be relegated to secondary layers. thumbs will be for shift and altgr. thumb usage should be quite low since they access less common chars only. unlike CLP/SC which used modifiers for common chars.
9
Keyboards and Other Interfaces / Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Last post by iandoug on 2018-Aug-07 01:58 »
I see X7.1 addresses my same finger issues above. Will have to print some stickers...
10
Why didn't you go X7.1H?

Keys were already printed for 6.5.

This is essentially a prototype for finding what is good and bad about the form factor.
And a learning curve in hardware design and construction.

Some key choices are annoying already, maybe because I'm typing slowly and more aware of same finger than on qwerty.
eg the GOY and AD and CT. Also KE especially on this forum.

Once I adjust to this form factor and sort out the remaining hardware/software issues I will try other layouts.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 10

7 Guests, 1 User