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Author Topic: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout  (Read 2167 times)

iandoug

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PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« on: 2016-Nov-27 15:55 »
So if I understand you correctly, then you are saying we should replace the bigrams th and ng with something like
Code: [Select]
þ and ŋ

and you want to replace th regardless of the sound (with the thesis).

and then drop c,x,q and replace with new vowel sounds
Code: [Select]
ə and ɔ and ɐ

and make y like ü

Okay, my observation is that in the one case you are targeting letters, and in the other, sounds.

Just worried that that approach will lead to design conflicts down the road.

Also, if J replaces Y so that yellow becomes jellow, how do we spell Jupiter?

Thanks, Ian
« Last Edit: 2016-Nov-27 16:54 by iandoug »

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1 on: 2016-Nov-28 06:25 »
So I consult my concise Oxford English dictionary...

Looking at their pronunciation guide, we would need 35 keys to cover everything. Some things that are currently 2 keys become 1, and some that are 1 become 2, and in one case 2 becomes 3.

There are several symbols which I don't like (confusing with other symbols like Theta, Integral sign, I, or render poorly), but they apparently come from IPA so going against that will be difficult.

Some vowels require a colon, which will also be confusing since it already has it's own usage. Perhaps a middot · could be used instead.

Then we would need to translate some texts into this alphabet to compare layouts...

Font support will be a problem... :-)

Any idea of the overlap between what's needed in English and what's needed in other Euro/Asian languages? (and that can't be rendered with the 29 characters)

Useful: http://www.evertype.com/books/alice-en-fonipa.html
From Michael Everson (again) :-)

@Den: is his alphabet above missing the j?
If you go here
http://lingorado.com/ipa/
and make it translate 'yellow' you get
Code: [Select]
ˈjɛləʊ

Cheers, Ian
« Last Edit: 2016-Nov-28 13:35 by iandoug »

Den

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #2 on: 2016-Dec-03 08:36 »
Alphabets are phonemic systems, which means one letter correlates to one sound. For optimal simplicity, consistency, and cross-lingual coverage, then there should be certain ideal criteria for global standard alphabet.

1. One letter for one basic phone.
2. Eliminate redundancies.
3. Optimal coverage of phones within a comfortable amount of letters.

Since Latin alphabet is the de facto alphabet used across the globe, it would be easiest to modify that rather than try to have people adopt an entirely new glyph set. (But if that is a prerogative, check out my Flownetic alphabet, which is uniquely featural and phonetic and simple to write and read.)

It's obvious to anyone that Latin alphabet has quite a few redundant consonants, but also shortage of vowel sounds. Without increasing the set of symbols to learn, one may suggest turning redundant consonants into more vowels. That will in turn increase the possible combinations of vowel groups for all languages and avoid extraneous diacritics.

Then there are some common basic consonants that deserve their own letter. Such as Th, Ng, Sh, Ts, etc. I think we can safely expand the Latin alphabet to accommodate these.

The J in English is actually a compound sound which can be represented as DZ. (In the link you gave, it uses the proper Dʒ.) By the same token, Ch is more like TSh, where Sh would be given its own letter.

IPA has their own guidelines which are not necessarily (read: rarely) compatible with an everyday alphabet.
« Last Edit: 2016-Dec-03 08:45 by Den »
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iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #3 on: 2016-Dec-05 09:49 »
Alphabets are phonemic systems, which means one letter correlates to one sound. For optimal simplicity, consistency, and cross-lingual coverage, then there should be certain ideal criteria for global standard alphabet.

Since Latin alphabet is the de facto alphabet used across the globe, it would be easiest to modify that rather than try to have people adopt an entirely new glyph set. (But if that is a prerogative, check out my Flownetic alphabet, which is uniquely featural and phonetic and simple to write and read.)


It still seems to me as if you're aiming at replacing sounds AND letter combos, or am I misunderstanding? (in particular hard vs soft "th").

Had a look at Flownetic, am running a job in the back of my head comparing Flownetic vs IPA vs Unifon vs Monofon (which annoyingly has vanished from the web, even Internet Archive), in particular for number of glyphs required etc. Seems to vary from around 36 to 44, for English.

Monofon: http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/monofon.html
See links at bottom to glyphs.  Think ox and alms are too similar.

Michael made some glyphs for it, available in Unifont: http://unifoundry.com/unifont.html
http://unifoundry.com/pub/unifont-9.0.04/font-builds/unifont_csur-9.0.04.ttf

Also had a look at some of the work on Omniglot. I'm rather at a disadvantage here, my knowledge of such things is way behind yours.

Will let this stuff percolate for a while :-)

Cheers, Ian

Latin does not have enough glyphs, I think?

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #4 on: 2016-Dec-08 16:58 »
Since Latin alphabet is the de facto alphabet used across the globe, it would be easiest to modify that rather than try to have people adopt an entirely new glyph set. (But if that is a prerogative, check out my Flownetic alphabet, which is uniquely featural and phonetic and simple to write and read.)

Do you have a font with Flownetic ?

Busy building a cross-reference table between IPA and various proposals.

thanks, Ian

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #5 on: 2016-Dec-13 04:14 »
Do you have a font with Flownetic ?

No matter, will make a plan with your .pngs.

Cheers, Ian

Den

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #6 on: 2016-Dec-13 06:52 »
i thought about creating a font for Flownetic, but never got around to do it. i did complete the Liyahu font at http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/753317/liyahu . For Flownetic there are more uncertainties that i've been mulling over.


iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #7 on: 2016-Dec-14 15:48 »
i thought about creating a font for Flownetic, but never got around to do it. i did complete the Liyahu font at http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/753317/liyahu . For Flownetic there are more uncertainties that i've been mulling over.

I have a font (unifont-csur) with Monofon and Unifon in, was planning on just plugging in your pngs into some open space (probably @ E300) in the Private Use area (where those other two are).

Have made reasonable progress with my comparison chart, want to add Flownetic and then see if I can knock together some code to do IPA->script translations for comparative purposes.

Actually this whole project feels a bit like a wasted wild goose chase, because moving from Plain English to something saner is even more complex than moving from base 10 to Dozenal ...

But it's been interesting and I've learned quite a bit :-)




iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #8 on: 2016-Dec-14 16:07 »
Is the goal is "one keyboard for any language" then I suppose the Omniglot people provide the alternatives,

http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/phonetic.htm

I've looked at Interbet, Uniscript and Shwa (and Flownetic), the other letterforms did not appeal to me.

Interbet and Uniscript are more alphabet-based rather than phonetic, and thus not suitable.

Shwa was interesting and I may go back for a second look, but the requirement of at least 2 keys per letter would make typing more effort. Also I think the glyphs used may not work well at small point sizes.

Am drifting towards a phonetic-based system with single case. It won't work for every language. For English we need somewhere between 36 and 46 glyphs, depending on who you ask and how you talk... :-)

So if single case, then you need 23 keys ( the other 23 glyphs are shifted). Plus punctuation, numbers, etc. 23 keys ~= 24 == 3 rows of 8 == 3 x 4 x 2 which means less movement for text, just up and down not sideways.

Such thoughts are running around in my head ... :-)

Den

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #9 on: 2016-Dec-15 06:17 »
We can agree that we don't need more than one case.

Since we're talking about universal alphabet, we should go from general to specific, rather than singling out English. Some efficiency may be lost when typing in English or any given language.

How many keys do we need? Let's take Flownetic as work study, as that is the closest to IPA's ideal of one sound, one glyph.

Assume standard keyboard for typing text has 3 rows and 32 keys. We may use up to 4 layers: normal, shift, altgr, and shift+altgr.

Flownetic has (up to now) 83 glyphs. Let's further divide them so that the layers are more logical. Such that shifting a vowel key also spits out a vowel, not a consonant, and vice versa. So we have 35 vowels and 48 consonants in Flownetic.

Depending on the amount of layers we want to use:
2 layers: 18 v + 24 c = 42 keys needed
3 layers: 12 v + 16 c = 28 keys needed
4 layers: 9 v + 12 c = 21 keys needed

So in the best case, we need 3 layers to fit all Flownetic glyphs on a standard keyboard of 3 rows and 32 keys. I think 4 layers would be cumbersome. 3 layers still leaves 4 keys for punctuation.

The next dilemma is deciding the which glyphs go on which layer. Ideally the normal layer has the basic vowels and consonants commonly found across the most ubiquitous languages in the world.

Now discuss English for a moment. It is fortunate that most English sounds are basic and simple and also found in many other languages. That means for the most part, typing English would not be greatly adversely affected. There may be cases where normal key doesn't give a sound found in a given language. Would then have to shift and altgr, but we are already used to that due to capitalization.


iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #10 on: 2016-Dec-16 07:05 »
Found this while looking for something else (the 1847 alphabet in Unicode, if you must know.. .:-) )

http://www.pentzlin.com/

In particular, his thoughts on
http://www.europatastatur.de/presentation1/
http://www.world-keyboard.com/

Not saying I agree, just that solving this problem has been going for a while :-)

I also saw a Usenet post from way back mentioning "the futility of a phonetic-based" writing system/keyboard due to, as I also realised, the problems with different accents needing different spellings.

Ian's "programmer's approach" to THAT problem, is both radical and simple (in theory, if not practice... )

English is one language.
It shall have one spelling.
And one pronunciation.

Otherwise stop calling what you speak "English". :-)
Yes, I will also have to learn to speak in Received Pronunciation...

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #11 on: 2016-Dec-17 12:29 »
i thought about creating a font for Flownetic, but never got around to do it. i did complete the Liyahu font at http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/753317/liyahu . For Flownetic there are more uncertainties that i've been mulling over.

Eventually figured out a workflow to get from your PNGs to glyphs, bit more effort than I was hoping for.
1. convert .png to .gif (because next steps in FontForge won't work with the png's, dunno why, the gifs are the same just grey instead of black...)
2. select spot in font, open to edit it.
3. import .gif
4. autotrace.
5. manually fix. Remove bounding line.  The zero was basically done, the 1 needed the 4th corner, the 10 needed corners, the 11 was more effort moving the curves etc.

So will take a while. Letters seem to have generous left-right spacing. Screenshot attached. Ignore surrounding lines, it's in a table cell.

I guess "line weights" are gonna vary a bit.


iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #12 on: 2016-Dec-18 06:07 »
is 8 a Z or not-equals?

thanks, Ian

Den

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #13 on: 2016-Dec-18 11:19 »
is 8 a Z or not-equals?

thanks, Ian

Two parallel horizontal lines connected by an oblique line connected at opposite ends of them. In short like a Z.

The latest official versions are found on this website.

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #14 on: 2016-Dec-18 11:49 »
Two parallel horizontal lines connected by an oblique line connected at opposite ends of them. In short like a Z.

The latest official versions are found on this website.

Okay have the Z version. Is 13 like a 3 or backwards P?

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #15 on: 2016-Dec-19 02:11 »
Do you have any preference for the glyph order?

At present just stacking them into the font in the order that my OS sorted the png/gifs. So numbers first, then working through a?, b, etc.

The question relates to sort order... I see sorting is actually a major problem, even for Latin scripts.

https://r12a.github.io/scripts/tutorial/part7

The order used for Kiowa seems sensible for a phonetic script:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabetical_order
Quote
    Kiowa is ordered on phonetic principles, like the Brahmic scripts, rather than on the historical Latin order. Vowels come first, then stop consonants ordered from the front to the back of the mouth, and from negative to positive voice-onset time, then the affricates, fricatives, liquids, and nasals:

        A, AU, E, I, O, U, B, F, P, V, D, J, T, TH, G, C, K, Q, CH, X, S, Z, L, Y, W, H, M, N

I guess followed by numerals and punctuation.

Thoughts?




Den

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #16 on: 2016-Dec-19 15:56 »
I would do vowels then consonants, and go down the columns left to right as presented in my tables.

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #17 on: 2017-Jan-08 04:59 »
Ian's "programmer's approach" to THAT problem, is both radical and simple (in theory, if not practice... )

English is one language.
It shall have one spelling.
And one pronunciation.

Otherwise stop calling what you speak "English". :-)
Yes, I will also have to learn to speak in Received Pronunciation...

Looks like they tried something similar a long time ago with Latin, without too much success.

===============================

Carolingian reform The period of Charlemagne was an epoch of reform in
education. With the revival of learning came a revision of church books which
brought about great activity in the writing schools of the monastic centres of
France. The changes initiated at that time had consequences for the development
of writing in Europe. As a visible manifestation of the reforms the Caroline
minuscule came into existence, developed under the direction of Alcuin of York,
abbot of St Martin's in Tours from 796 to 804 (figure 12). What has become
known as the 'dual alphabet', the combination of capital letters and small letters
in a single system, is a development which followed the introduction of the
Caroline minuscule.
At a deeper level, the relationship between spoken and written language was
affected. In Charlemagne's name Alcuin demanded that the corruption of the
language of the church should be checked, by which he meant that Latin should
be pronounced in a unified way throughout the empire: it should be pronounced
ad litteras, as it were. Each word was to be pronounced such that each letter could
be 'heard' in a way that was thought to have been its pronunciation in classical
times. In modem descriptive terms this was an attempt at standardizing and
simplifying sound-letter correspondences. This pronunciation reform came to be
known as reparatio. It was successful in that it led to a more standardized pronunciation
of Latin, but it had unforeseen consequences. Henceforward, the written
representation of Latin came to be regarded as the model of the language, a
model however which could provide guidance only to the literati who constituted
but a small part of the speech community. As a consequence, the gulf
between spoken and written Latin, which the reform was intended to eliminate,
widened and Latin was gradually reduced to a written language only. The reform
thus marked the beginning of diglossia in Romania, with Latin remaining for
some time the only written language and Romance evolving, more or less unaffected
by the interventionist language policy, into the vernaculars which were
eventually established as written languages in their own right.
The ad litteras movement is interesting as an early instance of language
planning. It offers important aspects of research into the complicated relationships
between spoken and written language, demonstrating as it does that a written
norm cannot arrest linguistic change, and that its influence can be only limited
in a speech community with highly restricted literacy.

========================================================
Lifted from THE BLACKWELL ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WRITING SYSTEMS

iandoug

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Flownetic
« Reply #18 on: 2017-Jan-30 09:04 »
@Den:

1. are there official punctuation symbols?

2. your /s/ and 5 are rather close ... please advise?

Thanks, Ian

Den

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Re: Flownetic
« Reply #19 on: 2017-Jan-31 19:33 »
@Den:

1. are there official punctuation symbols?

2. your /s/ and 5 are rather close ... please advise?

Thanks, Ian

1. not yet.

2. they're same for now. you could make slight modifications to 5, like a hard stop at the left before continuing the stroke.

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #20 on: 2017-May-27 16:09 »
And you thought Asian languages were complex.

Put this on a keyboard (or in IPA, for that matter...)

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170525-the-people-who-speak-in-whistles

iandoug

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Re: PanGalactic Keyboard Layout
« Reply #21 on: 2017-Nov-23 12:56 »
As usual, found while looking for something else:

http://keyax.com/global-keyboards/9-euromed-keyboard.html

Also came across a keyboard layout for Shavian, of all things...
https://za.pinterest.com/pin/441141725974388181/

I see there are entire sites dedicated to the topic ...

 

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