Author Topic: Balanced Keyboard Layout  (Read 46507 times)

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: How to make my own Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #550 on: April 17, 2017, 08:53:02 PM »

I agree I (we) should provide easy ways for users to install BEAKL.

I use and prefer autohotkey. This script converts Dvorak into BEAKL EZ:
http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/dv2beakl ez.ahk

note some keys have been remapped on my Kinesis keyboard. like ` and \ to the outside pinky. numlock to the left of number row.

MSKLC is probably the better solution long term. but I don't have experience with it.

Support me on Patreon

I saw. I conquered. I came.

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Yak
« Reply #551 on: April 18, 2017, 10:09:19 AM »
Stumbled across this:

https://github.com/wincent/yak-layout

Layout is 'curious' given that it was evolved. Initial testing does not show it performing very well.

JavaScript would not be my first choice language for a layout evolver... :-)

Cheers, Ian

It's looks really lopsided to the left hand (and the KLA confirms my suspicion). What is the deal with the top row? He says he wants to reduce pinky usage, but his layout has 'DAU' all on the left pinky.

JavaScript could be interesting if it was a webpage that has UI to allow users to fidget with the parameters. Nothing to download or install. Alas that doesn't seem to be the case. (Although after seeing his layout, I wouldn't trust it anyway.)

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #552 on: April 18, 2017, 11:19:14 AM »
MSKLC is crap. found Keyboard Layout Manager instead: http://www.klm32.com/

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Yak
« Reply #553 on: April 18, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »
(Although after seeing his layout, I wouldn't trust it anyway.)

I've been poking around the web and came across this:

RSTHD layout: https://xsznix.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/introducing-the-rsthd-layout/

I loaded it on ErgoLinear as an AltGr layout, actually installed over my x6.4 layout which is top scorer at the moment, so it inherited some punctuation placements from that, others were as per layout and the rest where I thought best.
Scores are pretty good.

Have also put Maltron onto ErgoDox (did I say that before), and both Maltron and RSTHD do pretty well at the bi-tri-quad-etc tests.  Especially the 7/8/9-gram versions. Normal English better than most.... suppose is affected by where they put the periods, commas and brackets etc.
Want to put Maltron onto ErgoLinear  as well.... compare apples with apples :-)

The Plum layout is also above average so far in initial tests (loaded on ErgoLinear as per above): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard

And then clearly we are missing out on a fortune in patent royalty income...  :-)
http://www.xpertkeyboard.com/

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #554 on: April 18, 2017, 12:32:17 PM »
RSTHD scores about 2-6% better than BEAKL EZ on Matrix. We can surmise that letter on thumb has some benefits. However compared to your -+T+- HT01-75.54 layout that puts H on the thumb, RSTHD is about 5% worse. So it still seems our results from Opt for putting H instead of E on thumb is preferred and more optimal.

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #555 on: April 18, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »
RSTHD scores about 2-6% better than BEAKL EZ on Matrix. We can surmise that letter on thumb has some benefits. However compared to your -+T+- HT01-75.54 layout that puts H on the thumb, RSTHD is about 5% worse. So it still seems our results from Opt for putting H instead of E on thumb is preferred and more optimal.

Yeah I tried E, T, A, N on thumb and it just would not get better scores... that's how I ended up with H.

Anyway came across this on the Colemak site:


Colemak using MK-Type V2.Staggerfix (Left thumb uses bottom row)
___________________________________________________________
| q | w | f | p | g | 7 | 8 | 9 | ` | [ | ] | \ | / | BSp |
|   A | R | S | T | d | 4 | 5 | 6 | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
|    z | x | c | v | b | 1 | 2 | 3 | h | N | E | I | O    |
|        |   |   |   |   | 0 | - | = | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn |     | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

Where the key takeaway is the split home row ... (caps are home).

Interesting idea. Although I really don't know why they waste time trying to find a good layout on a keyboard designed for two right hands (as someone here described it... :-) )
The whole ANSI/ISO thing must be chucked in the bin where it belongs.

Was trying to load it but don't know where the other characters go and how they end up with so many blank keys... so just gave up.

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #556 on: April 19, 2017, 12:00:59 PM »
Any theory why H on thumb scores best?

Maybe due to being the most frequent bigrams and trigram. Split the trigram THE. This has 2 consonants and 1 vowel. To balance the rest of the keyboard, 1 consonant--the middle one--is moved to thumb.

moreover Maybe these algorithms don't punish thumb - finger bigrams. I saw something in Opt that penalize thumb - index. But we can assume T E goes on middle finger, which is not affected by this penalty. So it seems middle finger is more premium location than thumb. If E is on thumb, then best place for TH is roll inward. Noting that in some algorithms rolling is less optimal than alternating fingers, especially if alternation involves thumb.

RSTHD uses the same hand for all 3 letters of the trigram most common trigram THE. which works for him since he prefers 2 and 3 keys long sequences.

(notably RSTHD is yet another layout that divides into vowel and consonant districts. also it has space on the vowel side, just like what we've discovered earlier.)

Actually studying my digram chart (http://www.shenafu.com/digrampop.html) , I think I see (partly) why H works best at thumb instead of other letters. There is a parallel amongst the four most common bigrams, including the space character.

E_
_T
TH
HE

1. The top 4 digrams are made of 4 different characters. So the thumb keys should nominate these as highest priority.

2. H is in the exact same situation as space, relative to T and E.

3. Putting T or E on thumb would imbalance the other bigram. ex. if E is on thumb, then TH must be typed with fingers. conversely, T on thumb means HE is typed with fingers.

4. If H is on thumb, both bigrams score better because thumb is involved for both.

5. Just realized that any finger to thumb is really an inward roll. So if H is on thumb, ideally it should on the same hand as T to make TH an inward roll. on the contrary, HE on the same hand is an outward roll. Same deal with space (instead of H).

6. Once you put more letters on the thumb, H falls out of favor. for instance, 3-letter thumb clusters are optimized for I_RN. see previous post for such a layout: http://shenafu.com/smf/index.php?topic=89.msg835;topicseen#msg835 . (Amazingly vowel and consonant districts are still maintained.) This seems to agree with my assessment that finger-thumb is inward roll. consider bigrams like: ei, ai, oi, tr, pr, dr, fr, gr, cr.



iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #557 on: April 19, 2017, 12:26:04 PM »
Any theory why H on thumb scores best?

I think you nailed it :-)

Just realised how to load that split-home layout above, but busy running all tests on a whole bunch of new layouts at the moment and I'm not going to start over again... literally takes a more than a day, and ties Firefox up.

Will put it in the next batch, if there is one. In tests so far (English) RSTHD is beating Maltron on ErgoLinear, most cases.

Discovered there's a bug in latest AJAX results code, works in Firefox but not Chrome so need to track it down before I can roll the results to live. Hate those sort of bugs :-)

Busy soldering my first DIY keyboard ...

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #558 on: April 20, 2017, 04:15:39 AM »
N on the thumb seems the exception, as all its common bigrams are outward rolls. maybe moving N to thumb would reduce same finger usage. having all three STN on the fingers seems crowded.

Actually P_RN, L_RN and U_RN are even better than I_RN.

Code: [Select]
\/ou-   bdmcq
zeai.   phtsy
j"'.x   kfwgv
    l_ rn

Code: [Select]
\/ou-   fdlcz
jeai.   yhtsb
q"',x   kmwgv
    p_ rn

Code: [Select]
\/o.x   bdclq
zeaiy   fhstw
j"',-   kpgmv
    u_ rn

Note left top pinky can be left empty. Moving 3 letters to thumb leaves one of the finger keys unused.

Some KLA tests seem to suggest 1-letter-on-thumb (-+T+- HT01-75.54) scores slightly better on regular prose and bigrams/trigrams test than these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts. But sometimes that layout (-+T+- HT01-75.54) does quite poorly on real world texts (social media, random cut-paste). Regardless, these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts score consistently high on all forms of text.

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #559 on: April 20, 2017, 04:22:53 AM »
If you're going to move the home row on a regular (unergonomic) keyboard, maybe move the whole row up so that the formerly bottom row can be used as thumb row. then put the letters and space on the thumb row as discussed.

We know Arensito moves entire rows up, but it didn't try to put letters on the thumb row. Modified with thumb-letters, Arensito would score much better for text, plus it already scores great on code. That could make it a serious contender.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 04:26:18 AM by Den »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #560 on: April 20, 2017, 04:28:38 AM »
Some KLA tests seem to suggest 1-letter-on-thumb (-+T+- HT01-75.54) scores slightly better on regular prose and bigrams/trigrams test than these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts. But sometimes that layout (-+T+- HT01-75.54) does quite poorly on real world texts (social media, random cut-paste). Regardless, these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts score consistently high on all forms of text.

"-+T+- HT02a" does much better at English (entire left column on my comparison site) than "-+T+- HT01-75.54" ... average effort 91.8 vs 97.7.

Do you have some scores handy? Eg Alice?

Thanks, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #561 on: April 20, 2017, 04:38:02 AM »
Some KLA tests seem to suggest 1-letter-on-thumb (-+T+- HT01-75.54) scores slightly better on regular prose and bigrams/trigrams test than these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts. But sometimes that layout (-+T+- HT01-75.54) does quite poorly on real world texts (social media, random cut-paste). Regardless, these 3-letters-on-thumb layouts score consistently high on all forms of text.

One version of my programmer's keyboard had E, T, space and return on the thumbs... but testing with Ergodox on KLA failed to get good scores... maybe there were other issues at play but I just could not make it work. I probably dragged N and A into the mix as well before ending up at H. It's something to look at again, with months of experience to help :-)

My X6.4 layout  (with h on same key as space, on left thumb) is still looking the best so far, except for 6/8/9-grams, where Maltron on ErgoLinear beats it.

About to start all the programming/tech tests.

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #562 on: April 20, 2017, 06:39:22 AM »
Now I kinda want to try 3-thumb layout on my kinesis. This also changes (upgrades? ) my former numpad that lacked a thumb key. Need to replan the entire physical keyboard.

Although a more programmable keyboard would be better for testing. (Hey lend me the DIY keyboard when you're done, will ya?  :P )

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #563 on: April 20, 2017, 06:52:10 AM »
This also changes (upgrades? ) my former numpad that lacked a thumb key. Need to replan the entire physical keyboard.

Although a more programmable keyboard would be better for testing. (Hey lend me the DIY keyboard when you're done, will ya?  :P )

Funny you should mention numpad thumbkey... I did exactly that for next version (still in planning, while building version 1).

Screenshot attached :-)

Let me first see how version 1 turns out... :-)

Cheers, Ian


Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #564 on: April 20, 2017, 10:31:40 AM »
- renamed layout files to <label>.<type>.json
- edited scripts to load new file names (template.js, controller.js, /api/get-layout.php)

https://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/kla.7z


« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:45:52 AM by Den »

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #565 on: April 20, 2017, 05:38:02 PM »
"-+T+- HT02a" does much better at English (entire left column on my comparison site) than "-+T+- HT01-75.54" ... average effort 91.8 vs 97.7.

Do you have some scores handy? Eg Alice?

Thanks, Ian

see attached. for random twitter text, -+T+- HT01-75.54 drops about 12% performance. probably not optimized for puncts, so hiccups at URLs? Tower of Hanoi code, it drops 21%.

btw P_RN sounds sexy for layout name. <_<
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:45:20 PM by Den »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #566 on: April 20, 2017, 06:26:25 PM »
see attached. for random twitter text, -+T+- HT01-75.54 drops about 12% performance. probably not optimized for puncts, so hiccups at URLs? Tower of Hanoi code, it drops 21%.

btw P_RN sounds sexy for layout name. <_<

Try attached. Note  my version of ErgoLinear is slightly different to yours.

Twitter URLs? You mean shortened? Basically random letters?

P_RN sounds interesting, like to see it :-)

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #567 on: April 21, 2017, 04:40:58 PM »
Now I kinda want to try 3-thumb layout on my kinesis. This also changes (upgrades? ) my former numpad that lacked a thumb key. Need to replan the entire physical keyboard.

Although a more programmable keyboard would be better for testing. (Hey lend me the DIY keyboard when you're done, will ya?  :P )

Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster doesn't feel good for finger-thumb rolling. might have to settle for 1 thumb-letter.

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #568 on: April 22, 2017, 01:47:37 AM »
Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster doesn't feel good for finger-thumb rolling. might have to settle for 1 thumb-letter.

I suspect (without actually having tried it myself, but based on dummy keyboard tests when developing my own designs) that what looks good and obvious in terms of those thumb clusters, is not so practical given the angle that our thumbs operate at. This unsubstantiated opinion (:-)) applies to Maltron and children (Kinesis and ErgoDox). But lots of people swear by those layouts so maybe I'm wrong.. :-)

You use Vivaldi, right? Which is Chromium in disguise... which is (back to roots) based on KHTML. At the moment local versions of KLA do not work in either Chromium or Konqueror (using either of the two supported render engines). The page loads without text. So I thought it was font-related... Firefox say the site uses Lato, pulled in via Google font api. Don't have it installed locally (strangely enough... only Noto family). But I can't figure out why Firefox has no trouble but my other two browsers don't work.

The live version works fine in both browsers... so I dunno if local version has some bad change that's breaking it or what. Most annoying. Maybe I must pull remote to separate folder and run some diffs. And start using git.. :-)

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #569 on: April 22, 2017, 11:42:58 AM »
I suspect (without actually having tried it myself, but based on dummy keyboard tests when developing my own designs) that what looks good and obvious in terms of those thumb clusters, is not so practical given the angle that our thumbs operate at. This unsubstantiated opinion (:-)) applies to Maltron and children (Kinesis and ErgoDox). But lots of people swear by those layouts so maybe I'm wrong.. :-)

The problem is the main thumb keys are long, which obstruct the other keys. This is okay for independent utility keys, but not for combination rolling with fingers, especially when speed and accuracy is involved. Big keys also affect the impact point of striking a key. It feels weird to hit a key other than at the center.

Instead, they can split the big keys into smaller keys. This should improve rolling with fingers and provides extra keys for the thumbs.

Quote
You use Vivaldi, right? Which is Chromium in disguise... which is (back to roots) based on KHTML. At the moment local versions of KLA do not work in either Chromium or Konqueror (using either of the two supported render engines). The page loads without text. So I thought it was font-related... Firefox say the site uses Lato, pulled in via Google font api. Don't have it installed locally (strangely enough... only Noto family). But I can't figure out why Firefox has no trouble but my other two browsers don't work.

there's something about enabling cross-server scripts for local servers.


iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #570 on: April 22, 2017, 12:55:50 PM »
The problem is the main thumb keys are long, which obstruct the other keys. This is okay for independent utility keys, but not for combination rolling with fingers, especially when speed and accuracy is involved. Big keys also affect the impact point of striking a key. It feels weird to hit a key other than at the center.

Instead, they can split the big keys into smaller keys. This should improve rolling with fingers and provides extra keys for the thumbs.

See attached for my attempt at a thumb cluster. Did not work as well as I thought it would.
It's one of the things I like about the ErgoLinear layout, but getting a single-size key (1U) that is thumb-friendly (ie convex rather than concave) seems to be impossible.

There's something about enabling cross-server scripts for local servers.

I installed Vivaldi, the 'developer tools' (which I suppose are straight from Chrome) tells me the Javascript is not being executed because it is text/octet-stream and not text/javascript. I presume this is because all the .js files end .js.download... will try renaming everything and see if that fixes it. Funny that Firefox handles the wrong mime type just fine. It's also sad that there are now effectively only 3 layout engines and JavaScript engines running the web (Google, Firefox and Microsoft...).

Am reluctant to rename all the layouts from standard.layoutname to layoutname.standard because then I need to also change them all in the iMacros script in Firefox that does the automated testing for me.
But I agree the standard.layoutname may have made sense in the past but now mixes up different variants of same layout.

Currently testing 182 layouts... need to remove all my 'experiments' so that it goes faster. Took over 3 days, and now the loading process is making me jump through hoops because I had slight differences in the layout files and the names I loaded into the database, and MariaDB for some reason is now doing case-sensitive searches where it never used to before...

Will post results table later.

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Top layouts
« Reply #571 on: April 22, 2017, 03:14:12 PM »
Finished loading all the tests locally. Will upload to live site tomorrow.

Anyway, here's the current top layouts (selected), I dropped the decimals
LayoutStyleAll testsAll EnglishProgrammingAll other tech
X6.4H ErgolinearErgolinear11691113148
X6 ErgolinearErgolinear11697113141
BEAKL 4 Mod Ian AltGr 3ANSI123100118156
MTGap TS ErgoLinear 2Ergolinear124104122151
Maltron ErgolinearErgolinear12698128160
RSTHD ErgoLinear 2Ergolinear12697124162
Colemak TS ErgoLinear 2Ergolinear126101119160
Arensito ErgolinearErgolinear127110119151
Ian X4ANSI12899114171
Nawfal ErgolinearErgolinear129109121156
Dvorak ErgolinearErgolinear130111128155
BEAKL5 ErgoLinearErgolinear131109126160
BEAKL EZ MatrixErgolinear133107124169
schizoKBD-shifted ANSI133101120181
Plum ErgolinearErgolinear137118131161
ArensitoANSI137117127167
Arensito Kinesis Ergodox139111132177
Ergodox MTGAP ThumbshiftErgodox159105141231
-+T+- HT02a Ergodox16295137257
Ergodox Colemak ThumbshiftErgodox163104141243
Maltron 90 ErgodoxErgodox175101180265
AOEYK ANSI177112179265
Right Pinky's FriendANSI187119198275
Dvorak ANSI198124211295
VU KeysANSI200109199323
MTGapANSI200117206311
Balance TwelveANSI202112188328
QGMLWYANSI203117202322
ColemakANSI204115200324
Capewell ANSI210123205328
NormanANSI210126207325
QWERTYANSI229161224323
QWERTY ProgrammerANSI274162230438

Nawfal is here: https://forum.colemak.com/topic/955-how-about-this-layout/
Plum is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard

I made both into Ergolinear by superimposing over my X6.4H layout.

Results seem to confirm strength of Ergolinear and/or AltGr punctuation/numerals, in particular X6.4 assignment.

Now have to retype all those numbers for my own page... :-((

Wonder what the Colemak fanbois will have to say ... :-)

Note: I've added a few more tests, which are quite heavy on the numbers: 500 blake2 hashes, and 500 (x2) "sums" like 4 + 5 - 2 /7 etc. So layouts with numbers on top row suffer. Also another 'words' test.
Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
ANSI Top Ten @ English, just rearrange keys
« Reply #572 on: April 22, 2017, 03:25:29 PM »
attached.

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Top layouts
« Reply #573 on: April 23, 2017, 05:50:03 AM »
Finished loading all the tests locally. Will upload to live site tomorrow.

Have loaded a representative sample of 60 layouts here:
http://www.keyboard-design.com/build-a-custom-keyboard-1/design.html
(scroll down a bit).

Scores for All tests, English tests, Programming tests, and Other Tech tests.

I dropped most of mine, yours, and Schizo's as well as most lesser-known ones, particularly the weaker ones.

There's some unfamiliar names on the list, found on the web (mostly on the Colemak forums). Some of them actually do quite well.

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #574 on: April 30, 2017, 03:51:07 AM »
Colemak using MK-Type V2.Staggerfix (Left thumb uses bottom row)

Where the key takeaway is the split home row ... (caps are home).

Just noticed that AOEYK also does a split-home-row thing.. has forefinger on traditional home row and the other three on the next row up. In fact seems a more natural approach for where to put the fingers.

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #575 on: May 01, 2017, 05:28:01 AM »
Anyway came across this on the Colemak site:
Colemak using MK-Type V2.Staggerfix (Left thumb uses bottom row)
___________________________________________________________
| q | w | f | p | g | 7 | 8 | 9 | ` | [ | ] | \ | / | BSp |
|   A | R | S | T | d | 4 | 5 | 6 | j | l | u | y | ; | ' |
|    z | x | c | v | b | 1 | 2 | 3 | h | N | E | I | O    |
|        |   |   |   |   | 0 | - | = | k | m | , | .      |
| Ctr | Wn |     | Shift              | Spa | W | M | Ctl |
-----------------------------------------------------------

Well this is interesting. I loaded the layout and ran it against Alice.

Scores attached.
Layout attached. "Enter" was left as an exercise for the reader so I put in on left ring, which I know from experience does good things to score.

Will include this layout in my next batch of tests. Must take a look at your pron as well... :-)

Cheers, Ian
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 05:38:39 AM by iandoug »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #576 on: May 01, 2017, 05:49:31 AM »

Code: [Select]
\/ou-   fdlcz
jeai.   yhtsb
q"',x   kmwgv
    p_ rn

Where do you put  enter and altgr?

Do you have a complete layout handy?

thanks, Ian

philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #577 on: May 03, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »
Hi Den and Ian ;-)
I have been going through these posts and checking out your layouts / ideas ..
I tried using Den's 'costs', with some personal modifications (the 'angleZ' bottom left hand ergo mod popular w. Colemak) with the 'MTGAP' optimizer and I am getting some interesting results.

The original link I had originally followed, that brought me here, had higher pinky costs than the ones we can see on the 1st page of these messages.
In the "Newer thoughts" notes, Den mentions that the pinky costs should be higher .. so I used the costs in the other chart (9 vs 7 for pinky). I was wondering which costs are you actually using !??

ie
Original keyboard effort

Code: [Select]
7 1 1 1 3 3 1 1 1 7
5 0 0 0 2 2 0 0 0 5
7 2 3 1 3 3 1 3 2 7

or
Code: [Select]
9   1   1   1   5   5   1   1   1   9
5   0.5 0.5 0.5 2   2   0.5 0.5 0.5 5
9   2   3   1   5   5   1   3   2   9

??

thank you

philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #578 on: May 03, 2017, 07:41:18 PM »
oh, and Ian, do you have a blog explaining the special AltGr and remapped control keys, as in "BEAKL 4 Mod Ian AltGr 3" ?
what about arrow keys, insert etc where are those placed  / accessed ?
thx ;-)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 08:11:47 PM by philippe.quesnel »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #579 on: May 03, 2017, 10:50:00 PM »
hi Philippe
The original link I had originally followed, that brought me here, had higher pinky costs than the ones we can see on the 1st page of these messages.
In the "Newer thoughts" notes, Den mentions that the pinky costs should be higher .. so I used the costs in the other chart (9 vs 7 for pinky). I was wondering which costs are you actually using !??

Den will probably give a better answer but I think Patrick's KLA uses different weights to the charts you quoted. IIRC Den used the quoted weights in his version of the https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.adnw.de/&prev=search ADnW analyzer.
The actual 'weights' used depends on whether you are using Patrick's scoring or Den's scoring in KLA. Den includes vertical distance as well as horizontal distance.

Code: [Select]
KB.dScoring = []; // relative to KB.PRESSDISTANCE = 21;
// lower means more effortless
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_PINKY] =    2.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_RING] =     1.3;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_MIDDLE] =   1.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_INDEX] =    1.1;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_THUMB] =    1.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_THUMB] =   1.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_INDEX] =   1.1;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_MIDDLE] =  1.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_RING] =    1.3;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_PINKY] =   2.0;
KB.dScoring[KB.finger.BOTH_THUMBS] =   2.0;
KB.dMod = KB.dScoring.reduce( sumArray, 0 ); // sum of all values above

KB.fScoring = []; // relative to KB.PRESSDISTANCE = 21;
// lower means more effortless
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_PINKY] =    2.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_RING] =     1.2;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_MIDDLE] =   1.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_INDEX] =    1.1;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.LEFT_THUMB] =    1.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_THUMB] =   1.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_INDEX] =   1.1;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_MIDDLE] =  1.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_RING] =    1.2;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.RIGHT_PINKY] =   2.0;
KB.fScoring[KB.finger.BOTH_THUMBS] =   2.0;
KB.fMod = KB.fScoring.reduce( sumArray, 0 ); // sum of all values above

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #580 on: May 03, 2017, 11:23:40 PM »
oh, and Ian, do you have a blog explaining the special AltGr and remapped control keys, as in "BEAKL 4 Mod Ian AltGr 3" ?
what about arrow keys, insert etc where are those placed  / accessed ?

Short answer: if the key is not shown, it does not matter where you put it as far as the scoring goes.

Long answer....

I have a rather outdated page which shows the layout on a full keyboard:
http://www.keyboard-design.com/layouts/100/ANSI-104-BEAKL4-Mod-Ian-AltGr-3.html
Those scores are from Patrick's KLA, so higher score is better.

KLA assumes a perfect typist who never makes mistakes, has no need for backspace or delete or to move around with arrow keys. My reality is very different :-)

The history of the AltGr layouts is buried in this discussion... basically Håkon Hallingstad who did the Arensito layout came up with the idea (as far as I can see) and we became aware that KLA was favouring this layout when it should not have been. The reason was that KLA only measured horizontal distances, and ignored vertical. Den redid the scoring to correct this at some point.

Then Schizo came along with his layouts, which did unusual things (even more than Arensito). The scores were annoyingly good, so I took a good look at how they were achieved. And built on that foundation.

The problem with Arensito/Schizo is that they are putting a good logical idea on a bad physical layout, the result is awkward for your hands and fingers to actually type. They will work better on Ergodox/Kinesis hardware.

This led to the development of the Ergolinear layout, which deals with some of the problems of Kinesis/Ergodox (those double-sized keys, excessive thumb cluster, etc.).

As above, the Ergolinear layout I used for testing does not concern itself with Nav keys.

But like I say, the physical ANSI keys are not going to be comfortable to type because the AltGr is too much under your hand. It's even worse on the Microsoft Natural (original version) that I currently use.

I'm guessing you're trying to figure out how to do these layouts on a GH60 or Planck or somesuch. I have not attempted that exercise yet... I don't like the Planck... prefer a split layout.

If you're interested you can look at the keyboard I'm building (which is going to be a "prototype", already planning the next version) here: http://www.keyboard-design.com/build-a-custom-keyboard-1/design.html
(see the glossy black X6.5 under the table).

Den's version of Ergolinear has nav keys on the bottom row (like Kinesis) ... mine leaves them blank and drops them in the real world.

I think if you're trying to translate this to a mini layout you may need another layer with Nav, function keys, maybe a more traditional numpad, etc.

Hope that helps :-)

Cheers, Ian



philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #581 on: May 04, 2017, 09:13:49 AM »
Thx Ian.
For the weights / costs, I was referring to the BEAK idea of a 3x3 "home grid" iso the traditional home row, hence the large costs on the pinkies, even on the home row. (are Den's and your layouts still based on this idea?)

Wow, designing your own keyboard !! You are more ambitious than me, bravo ;-)

I am using a traditional US keyboard .. have been thinking of getting a kinesis, but they are sooooo expensive !!
It would run me up to about $600CAD here in Montreal !! (without even being able to try it 1st)
And eventually, if I switch, I would want one at work (40hrs/week on the computer) and one at home ... $$$$
Actually at home I have a Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic, better hand angles, separated hands, Alts more useable with thumbs, but still staggered !!!

I use special chars on AltGr with a numpad on Shift-AltGr
and an 'extend' layer on CapsLock (LAlt on the Sculpt) for arrow keys and copy/paste/cut/undo

Maybe I should stop fiddling with different layouts and stick to one ;-p
After +20yrs of computer programming I decided about a year ago to learn touch typing, and realized :
1) even after all this time on a keyboard, I was still starting from scratch
2) touch typing on QWERTY was crazy,
so might as well learn a new layout.
The rest is history, it's an interesting hobby though hehe

cheers, Phil

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #582 on: May 04, 2017, 10:19:43 AM »
Thx Ian.
For the weights / costs, I was referring to the BEAK idea of a 3x3 "home grid" iso the traditional home row, hence the large costs on the pinkies, even on the home row. (are Den's and your layouts still based on this idea?)

FWIW my current layout proposals are simply those that get the best scores on Den's scoring on KLA, which is based on the weights I posted yesterday. I think that 3x3 grid was something Den was toying with but I don't think it was included in the scoring algorithm in KLA. I have reasonably frequently used letters on the pinkies (home row) and it works okay scoring-wise. 
For example me: I+R, Maltron: A+R, MTGap: I+R, Colemak: A+O ....

It's better to use the pinky now and then than to have to move a ring finger to access a key continuously. Also we only have 8/10 fingers and there's 26 letters + punctuation etc... so they all have to work :-)

The sad truth is that good keyboards are expensive. Save $50 a month... :-)

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Splitting letters
« Reply #583 on: May 04, 2017, 10:40:31 AM »
@Den...

So while reading the recent posts, I had a truly bizarre idea ... that the frequency of letters is different for uppercase and lowercase.

So "logically" the upper case and lower case should be on different keys... (yeah. Major learning curve.)

Google kicked this out: see table on page 390 in this PDF extract:
http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758%2FBF03195586.pdf
if that doesn't work, go here first and accept cookie:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03195586  (get the  supplementary material Jones-BRM-2004.zip (575 kb) here ... has the raw scores for all the ASCII chars.)

Executive summary: most common uppercase is TSANCINBRP, while most common lowercase is etaonisrhl.

I will need to play with to get into a usable form. Will see if I can run a test over the weekend. Suspect score will be good and usability difficult :-)
Interesting that s is so low in lowercase vs upper. And H does not even feature in upper (ranks 13). Which may be part of the reason why my X6.4 with h/H on space key works.

And what about E ... only ranks 11!
Food for thought. People will think I'm going insane... :-)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:54:55 AM by iandoug »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
splitting letters
« Reply #584 on: May 04, 2017, 11:43:13 AM »
Nah, made a layout (attached), ran it against the English tests, scores are as per X6.4H +/- <0.5.

So no real improvement, unless my first allocation of Caps sucked.

Here's the frequency lists, I only played with the caps.
etaonisrhldcumfpgywbvkxzjq
TSAMCINBRPEDHWLOFYGJUKVQXZ

Cheers, Ian

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #585 on: May 04, 2017, 12:25:30 PM »
I tried using Den's 'costs', with some personal modifications (the 'angleZ' bottom left hand ergo mod popular w. Colemak) with the 'MTGAP' optimizer and I am getting some interesting results.

The original link I had originally followed, that brought me here, had higher pinky costs than the ones we can see on the 1st page of these messages.
In the "Newer thoughts" notes, Den mentions that the pinky costs should be higher .. so I used the costs in the other chart (9 vs 7 for pinky). I was wondering which costs are you actually using !??

Code: [Select]
9   1   1   1   5   5   1   1   1   9
5   0.5 0.5 0.5 2   2   0.5 0.5 0.5 5
9   2   3   1   5   5   1   3   2   9



That chart is good enough for optimizers to find the ideal layout. I messed around with many permutations to see if it makes a difference to finding the best layout. For that matter, little changes to the finger effort costs don't play a big role. Other factors like hand alternation costs drastically affects the final layout.

Nevertheless, a standard chart is useful to compare the exact scores between vastly different layout families. Such as on KLA to compare layouts created by different people and software. But KLA uses a prescriptive scoring system for finger effort not easily visualized in a single chart.

Den

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Selina is my Superstar
    • View Profile
    • Amuseum
Re: splitting letters
« Reply #586 on: May 04, 2017, 02:18:40 PM »
Nah, made a layout (attached), ran it against the English tests, scores are as per X6.4H +/- <0.5.

So no real improvement, unless my first allocation of Caps sucked.

Here's the frequency lists, I only played with the caps.
etaonisrhldcumfpgywbvkxzjq
TSAMCINBRPEDHWLOFYGJUKVQXZ

Cheers, Ian

What is the frequency of capital letters overall? If they are around punctuations frequency, then rearranging them wouldn't improve much, if at all.

Did you take into account bigrams? to avoid same finger and same hand penalties. e.g. 'M' is almost always followed by a vowel, especially 'e', so you should discourage putting them on the same key. likewise 'Co', 'Is', etc..
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 02:29:18 PM by Den »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: splitting letters
« Reply #587 on: May 04, 2017, 03:39:48 PM »
What is the frequency of capital letters overall? If they are around punctuations frequency, then rearranging them wouldn't improve much, if at all.

Did you take into account bigrams? to avoid same finger and same hand penalties. e.g. 'M' is almost always followed by a vowel, especially 'e', so you should discourage putting them on the same key. likewise 'Co', 'Is', etc..

Re (1), that data is in the .zip file but I need to play with it. Also it's a bit suspect, eg they have a "web" corpus with ZERO "&" ... which surely can not be correct.

Re (2), no I did not, just worked through the list allocating in the usual manner, eg middle home, index home, ring home, pinky home, middle top, middle bottom, etc... leaving some where they are and mixing the alternation.  The cap vowels are no longer all on the same hand. Maybe they should be.

In this case M came out on e, with no other vowels on same finger. It was just a quick and dirty attempt, because I was actually busy with work work.. :-)

Am in two minds about spending more time on the idea. I also realised I should look at frequency of all chars overall (which may mean punctuation goes where caps now are, etc) and then got disappointed when I saw the issues in the supplied data. In testing the new layout was better in some cases and worse in others. Suppose it depends on which caps are used, and how many there are. Think it did better in the longer tests like Classics Collection. Was not better with Alice.

Learning such a layout is going to be a mission.... :-)

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #588 on: May 04, 2017, 03:55:29 PM »
I use special chars on AltGr with a numpad on Shift-AltGr
and an 'extend' layer on CapsLock (LAlt on the Sculpt) for arrow keys and copy/paste/cut/undo


French? that's a different problem to English. I have been thinking about it... we basically need an entirely different approach to ISO layouts where they try to have a dedicated key for every possible ê é è ë, á à ß ø Ø etc etc. Too many combos to have a dedicated key. The Linux system with "compose" key is better (and is how I did those... with some effort, since I hardly use them). But how do we teach Windoze/Mac to do compose key method?

Or do we for example add another row to Ergolinear layout, with all the modifiers on, and then teach keyboard/host OS to understand what you mean when you type letter followed by modifier (which in effect is just another way of Linux Compose method)...

Wikipedia tells me that Compose method is possible on Windows and Mac...

The next problem is how to teach KLA to understand Compose sequences... so that we can evaluate ISO layouts... :-)

philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #589 on: May 04, 2017, 05:21:54 PM »
That chart is good enough for optimizers to find the ideal layout. I messed around with many permutations to see if it makes a difference to finding the best layout. For that matter, little changes to the finger effort costs don't play a big role. Other factors like hand alternation costs drastically affects the final layout.

Nevertheless, a standard chart is useful to compare the exact scores between vastly different layout families. Such as on KLA to compare layouts created by different people and software. But KLA uses a prescriptive scoring system for finger effort not easily visualized in a single chart.
ok, thank you

philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #590 on: May 04, 2017, 05:37:34 PM »
French? that's a different problem to English. I have been thinking about it... we basically need an entirely different approach to ISO layouts where they try to have a dedicated key for every possible ê é è ë, á à ß ø Ø etc etc. Too many combos to have a dedicated key. The Linux system with "compose" key is better (and is how I did those... with some effort, since I hardly use them). But how do we teach Windoze/Mac to do compose key method?

Or do we for example add another row to Ergolinear layout, with all the modifiers on, and then teach keyboard/host OS to understand what you mean when you type letter followed by modifier (which in effect is just another way of Linux Compose method)...

Wikipedia tells me that Compose method is possible on Windows and Mac...

The next problem is how to teach KLA to understand Compose sequences... so that we can evaluate ISO layouts... :-)

I use the AltGr layer for programming symbols stuff.

As for french, I kinda just ignored the problem (mostly) in general, in Windows I just switch off Autokey / PKL and goto French Canadian keyboard in the O/S. (switch layouts in Linux)

And yes, I guess that keyboard (standard Windows) does 'compose', but for a specific set of characters.
You can also create a keyboard that does this in MKLC (they're called dead keys)

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:45:28 PM by philippe.quesnel »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: splitting letters
« Reply #591 on: May 04, 2017, 11:45:38 PM »
What is the frequency of capital letters overall? If they are around punctuations frequency, then rearranging them wouldn't improve much, if at all.

Took the spreadsheet, added the rows, sorted descending. Space is presumably first (and missing).

e t a o i n s r h l d c u m p f g . y w b - , v 0 k 1 T A I S 2 C ' " / 3 E D 9 : M N = R P ; 4 O B 5 ) L ( H F x 8 W 6 7 G _ U j q z J < ? Y @ * V K ! | $ ~ [ ] % X & + # Q Z } { > ` \ ^


iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: splitting letters
« Reply #592 on: May 04, 2017, 11:47:43 PM »
Took the spreadsheet, added the rows, sorted descending. Space is presumably first (and missing).

e t a o i n s r h l d c u m p f g . y w b - , v 0 k 1 T A I S 2 C ' " / 3 E D 9 : M N = R P ; 4 O B 5 ) L ( H F x 8 W 6 7 G _ U j q z J < ? Y @ * V K ! | $ ~ [ ] % X & + # Q Z } { > ` \ ^

the corpus clearly never had much programming text ... + should be much higher. And ; probably too, depending on language. Can't see how : would rank higher than ; unless you are dealing with dramatic scripts etc.

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Row allocation for Ergolinear
« Reply #593 on: May 06, 2017, 02:59:55 AM »
@Den:

See attached, which is row usage analysis. The Ergolinear is assuming that there is a numrow, so everything is shifted up.
I've taken a look at the code and see that rowDisplayData has code for only showing 3 rows, but can't figure out where to change what to get row usage data correct.

Do you think this affects the scoring at all? From what I could see, scoring works off Home Finger Position rather than "home row"... or am I missing something?

Thanks, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Work in progress.
« Reply #594 on: May 06, 2017, 03:10:37 AM »
Looks promising.
Number tests could be better. Will see if can optimise.

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
shift-ALtGr
« Reply #595 on: May 10, 2017, 09:57:19 AM »
@Den: any ideas about the wisdom/viability or otherwise of putting Space on shift-AltGr?

Been playing with layouts where it is set like that, (or Enter on Shift-AltGr) when it suddenly dawned on me that such things may be forbidden?... But on the other hand I've seen talk of putting CapsLock on Shift-Shift, so in theory it must be possible to define a modified modifier to do something unusual?

I suppose OS is going to play a role in this?...

Thanks, Ian

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
There's a patent on that... :-)
« Reply #596 on: May 11, 2017, 06:37:44 AM »
@Den Some time back in this long discussion you said something about the the vowels being on the left and the consonants on the right... there's a patent on that :-)

"1974 English Keyboard Scheme, U.S. Pat. No. 3,847,263 issued to X. X adopts the horizontal arrangement of QWERTY. X relocates 24 letters of the alphabet from their former location on the QWERTY keyboard; 2 letters retain their former positions (to wit: HX). X places 9 most used keys on the home row (to wit: AEHIONRST) and selects the vowel "U" for the 10th position. The X feature is to place the vowels (AEIOU) on the same side, to be typed by one hand, with consonants on the other side of the home row, to be typed by the other hand."

https://www.google.com/patents/US5718590

I was actually searching for some discussion as to why Burroughs-Bower layout never took off... it's vastly superior to QWERTY.
But patent above has some interesting reading.

I feel like I should patent some of my layouts, but 1) only patents worth having are US, Euro and maybe China, and
2) Costs of getting those .... will need lawyers in each territory. Just seems frightfully expensive for nothing... because if someone infringes then I need to sue them, again with the lawyers....

Given the silly layouts that got patented, what we (and others like MTGap, Capewell, Colemak etc) came up with should also be patented. Or something. On the other hand we all stand on the shoulders of giants...

So I dunno... I suppose publishing online provides "prior art" to stop someone else hijacking the designs.

Current "Seelpy" layout I'm working on is a notch above others in testing so far, but it's unlike anything else I've seen on a keyboard. (It actually is "new/novel" and qualifies for a patent AFAICS.) So public acceptance is going to be difficult, despite the obvious benefits for the fingers. Will publish once testing is done (after now restarting for the 4th or 5th time).

In other news Halmak has released a new/final version, which I've added to my mix: https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak

Not sure how he is measuring or how Workman is rated so much better than Colemak... my testing puts Colemak in the top echelon with MTGap, Maltron, VU Keys and RSTHD (all on ErgoLinear). Didn't make Workman ErgoLinear because its ANSI and Ergodox scores were not that good.

Cheers, Ian
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 09:54:12 AM by iandoug »

iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Maltron
« Reply #597 on: May 11, 2017, 06:46:07 AM »
Mmm so they also mention the Maltron layout which is patented...

https://www.google.us/patents/US4244659

Was wondering about that.

philippe.quesnel

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #598 on: May 11, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
Didn't know there were patents on keyboard layouts !!
which brings me to this: Ian, do you mind if I use your 'BEAKL 4 Mod Ian AltGr 3' alt layer ?

I have been trying out layouts using the Arensito / Ian AltGr 3 idea (putting digits / symbols on alt layer), with a (slightly) modified version of the MTGAP optimizer.

Since I'm using std keyboards, I am trying the idea of using Space as the Alt/layer key.
With Autokey I can use space as an alt key AND as the normal space.
If only I could use the 2 spacebars on the Ergo Sculpt as separate keys .. it would be just incredible !! (2 thumbs !)


iandoug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 709
    • View Profile
    • Keyboard Design
Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #599 on: May 11, 2017, 09:40:09 AM »
which brings me to this: Ian, do you mind if I use your 'BEAKL 4 Mod Ian AltGr 3' alt layer ?

Be my guest ... :-) Like to know how it feels in practice.
FWIW the X4 variant is slightly better than the AltGr 3 ... it was developed from AltGr3 and I changed the naming scheme.
I probably need to revisit the ANSI layouts in light of what the better ErgoLinear layouts do. But ANSI is just so bad in too many ways that I got annoyed with it :-)

Since I'm using std keyboards, I am trying the idea of using Space as the Alt/layer key.
With Autokey I can use space as an alt key AND as the normal space.
If only I could use the 2 spacebars on the Ergo Sculpt as separate keys .. it would be just incredible !! (2 thumbs !)

How do you use space as an Alt key? Shift=space or somesuch?

I assume you are on Windows, there should be some software that will allow you to sniff the "scan code" that the keyboard is sending the OS when a key is pressed. Possibly if you are lucky, the two space bars are sending different codes, and it's the OS that "knows" that both are space bar... and which you may be able to modify....?

Nah, scratch that ... looks like MS only built in a backspace on left hand space.
https://superuser.com/questions/687615/microsoft-sculpt-keyboard-linux-support

« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 09:49:25 AM by iandoug »