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2019-Aug-24 03:57

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Aug. 20 2019 - 6:30pm
@Den Small question, what determines which stat and item use increases after battle (For Humans/Mutants) ?
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Mar. 24 2019 - 7:46pm
@Den Just finished 2nd playthrough and testing session. I really like the edits I have made. Going to take another week to look over things !!
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Mar. 11 2019 - 7:04pm
@Den Hey, thanks for all of the support. Finished with the changes and currently playing through the game !!
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Feb. 25 2019 - 7:31pm
@Den Yo, finishing up the bosses and will do some more testing before the big release !!
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Feb. 18 2019 - 10:42pm
@Den Hey, got the main bosses edited and working on the treasure chests. Getting close to finished my edits !!
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Feb. 10 2019 - 9:11pm
@Den Yo, got the shops edited now and will start work on the treasure edits. I bit confused on monster chests ATM...
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Jan. 29 2019 - 6:56pm
@Den Hey, really making progress with my Hex-Editing. Replied to my topic...a bit stuck again
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Jan. 23 2019 - 11:42pm
@Den  Yo, I am really getting the hang of this HEX editing stuff !! Working on figuring out the growth rate formula !!

Author Topic: Balanced Keyboard Layout  (Read 290495 times)

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1600 on: 2019-Mar-10 13:23 »
Both layouts are for two right hands, the rows of keys seem to be deliberately arranged in such a way that  both wrists have to be slanted like this: \ \.

Ergonomics expert Karl H.E. Kroemer's opus "Fitting the Human", 7th edition, has the attached image on page 340.

So maybe we're all jumping to the wrong conclusion ... Sholes did his layout for ONE right hand... the left held the page you were typing from.

In which case the consistent slope to the left makes sense.

(FWIW, the edition is rather light on information that would be useful on this project, IMHO).

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

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"Code" layout
« Reply #1601 on: 2019-Mar-11 00:59 »
Found while looking for something else.

https://github.com/osls/code-layout

Json attached.

On KLAtest does better than QWERTY but worse than Colemak/Dvorak/MTGap.

Cheers, Ian

philippe.quesnel

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Re: "Code" layout
« Reply #1602 on: 2019-Mar-11 08:00 »
Found while looking for something else.

https://github.com/osls/code-layout

Json attached.

On KLAtest does better than QWERTY but worse than Colemak/Dvorak/MTGap.

Cheers, Ian
hehe there's an  autohotkey script.. I'll try it out just for fun 😁

shopt

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1603 on: 2019-Mar-14 01:38 »
:-)
Okay, you confirm my point that QMK works by faking that it is a US ANSI keyboard. (which, as an aside, is not "the Linux way").

So it pretends you are pressing what would be "a" on US ANSI, regardless of where it actually is on the keyboard.

Now what happens when you're in Canada and you define the normal letter on a key to be é . That does not exist in US ANSI, so what does QMK send?

Your description matches how I understood QMK's intentions to be ('we can do anything", more or less) and yes it can tap dance and do backflips, but at the end of the day it's still faking being a US ANSI when it comes to sending scan codes.

In my case, building the X6.5h (https://keyboard-design.com/letterlayout.html?layout=x6-5h.en.ergolinear) I had issues getting the Function keys to work. This may have been because of XKB (I "Included" other default components including Function keys, and tried to redefine them in XKB mappings by putting them on the numeric shift, but didn't work) rather than QMK. There may also have been some other issue, can't remember now, tried to have another look over the weekend but other stuff got in the way. Will try again during week).

When I looked at it I got very confused by the QMK documentation .... they really need a better Big Dummy's guide for us newbies. With lots of simple examples. At the time I though their config method was unnecessarily complex and there had to be a simpler way, maybe that's not possible if you want to to backflips.

I see I redid QMK to think it's running on a mostly-ANSI layout, so my problems probably lie more at the XKB end.

Will revert. Else I need to put aside time to become more of an expert on QMK. Trying to get away with learning only what I need to learn ;-)
I have to admit I'm with sdothum in not getting what limitation you think QMK is imposing. There are some QMK limitations, but I don't think you are describing a QMK limitation but rather a USB HID limitation. All keyboards send scancodes, and the OS does something with them. QMK can send any scancode. It has made convenient names for the scancodes at https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/tmk_core/common/keycode.h which correspond to US-ANSI. In other words when you use the QMK keycode KC_A on a keymap, it sends the scancode which will be interpreted by any OS using the US-ANSI layout as an "a". You are free to alias or rename any keycode you want to send any scancode you want. Specifically for your french example, see https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/quantum/keymap_extras/keymap_french.h

So I guess the question is what do you think a QMK keyboard cannot do that another physical keyboard could?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1604 on: 2019-Mar-14 02:40 »
example, see https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/quantum/keymap_extras/keymap_french.h

So I guess the question is what do you think a QMK keyboard cannot do that another physical keyboard could?

That French file helps a lot.

My issues were (remembering that I was new to QMK and very much at sea)

1. I was expecting the configs to let me specify that pressing row 3 col 2 would send the scancode for row 3 col 2, not that it would send the scancode for qQ (if I figured that out correctly) or jJ if I had decided to put that letter there.

2. it was not immediately obvious how to specify that pressing shift-/ sent something different to what is on US-ANSI / key. Or even (for Essie/Seelpy layouts) that shift-e was actually a and not E.

The French layout shows me how it do that... thanks :-)

I had decided to do it again the QMK way rather than letting XKB do the heavy lifting, but luckily other stuff got in the way, and now I have a better clue... :-)

Thanks, Ian

gyf

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1605 on: 2019-Mar-23 19:38 »
Hello all,
tried to optimize both English and Chinese Pinyin and came up with this layout.
By putting i,e,a,o,u on the way same as other BEAKL layout on the left hand side is actually
optimal in my opinion, both logically and ergonomically. The only down side is ua bigram in Chinese and placement of i on ring finger, but cannot come up with a better solution now.

For right hand consonants district, so far I am happy with it, probably gonna tweak a little more, note that these are optimized for both languages so there are some trade offs. I do think that the punctuations part can be optimized further, along with L,R shift, Alt-Gr etc.
 
What do you guys think of this layout? Still new so I may need some suggestions. I think this layout can be a potential candidate to beat BEAKL-EZ, although more test will be needed.

Btw for benchmarking other languages, I think lyrics is somewhat biased, maybe does not reflects true distribution of frequency for Pinyin, cannot confirm but I will run more paragraph with pinyin later, and I can also provide the text if needed.

Thanks!
gyf

ankt

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1606 on: 2019-Mar-28 11:56 »
Here is mine. Maybe that will help you.
https://postimg.cc/H88JjkrT

Den

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Bruhdooh on Youtube
« Reply #1607 on: 2019-Apr-12 05:48 »
This Bruhdooh has Youtube channel where he records his typing speeds: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6qYy2El8APSL5sfxzSkBoA

He created a new layout based on BEAKL Opted1 and bit of Colemak to reduce same finger, and now achieved up to 113 WPM after about two weeks:



Even on QWERTY, I notice he rarely uses his pinky--sometimes ring finger to hit A/Q, and he achieves 150+ WPM.

« Last Edit: 2019-Apr-20 05:49 by Den »
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Den

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Re: Bruhdooh on Youtube
« Reply #1608 on: 2019-Apr-20 05:54 »
Bruhdooh on Youtube explains how he types at 150 WPM:

Quote
"I only use 7 finges while typing. I do not use my right pinky, and I don't use either thumb. I use my left pinky on very specific letters and words only. I mainly use six fingers: Indexes, Middles, and Rings."

Crazier thing is he even hits the space bar with index finger.



Bruhdooh

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Re: Bruhdooh on Youtube
« Reply #1609 on: 2019-Apr-20 15:37 »
Bruhdooh on Youtube explains how he types at 150 WPM:

Crazier thing is he even hits the space bar with index finger.



Hello, I'm the guy you are talking about. I don't type like that anymore, I now use 9 fingers and thumb for spacebar. And on QWERTY I hit speeds of 160WPM+ three times.

Anyway, I really do like BEAKL and hope that I can somewhat become the fastest BEAKL typist in the world. I believe there is one other person who types on stenography who is around my speed as well on BEAKL 15.

If you have any questions, I can answer them here for you. :)

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1610 on: 2019-Apr-24 09:44 »
@Den ... odd, no longer receiving updates when new posts are made.

Anyway, FWIW:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47460499

BTW above typing speeds certainly impressive ...

Cheers, Ian

Bruhdooh

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1611 on: 2019-Apr-24 14:30 »
@Den ... odd, no longer receiving updates when new posts are made.

Anyway, FWIW:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47460499

BTW above typing speeds certainly impressive ...

Cheers, Ian

I was wondering if you were going to make any more updated versions of BEAKL? I have managed to get around three more people go try out BEAKL 9 and 15.

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1612 on: 2019-Apr-24 16:40 »
I was wondering if you were going to make any more updated versions of BEAKL? I have managed to get around three more people go try out BEAKL 9 and 15.

BEAKL is from Den, not me.... :-)

But glad people are finding that it works for them... :-)

Bruhdooh

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1613 on: 2019-May-01 23:34 »
I'm having trouble finding a download link for BEAKL 9 or any of the other versions besides BEAKL 10 and 15. Is there a download link for each version or is there just the download of those two?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1614 on: 2019-May-16 16:25 »
I'm having trouble finding a download link for BEAKL 9 or any of the other versions besides BEAKL 10 and 15. Is there a download link for each version or is there just the download of those two?

http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/klatest/#/config

itypeonkeyboards

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1615 on: 2019-Jun-01 15:16 »
My apologies if these are dumb/answered questions, but I'm looking at BEAKL-15's layout and there are a few things I don't understand:
  • I assume AltGr is equivalent to the "Windows" key?
  • Since AltGr is a layer key, how does one do combinations like Windows+L (to lock the screen)?
  • Looking at http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/kla3/#/config, how do I map entries like "u:2196" to a key I actually recognize (maybe those, in particular, are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn)?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1616 on: 2019-Jun-01 16:29 »
My apologies if these are dumb/answered questions, but I'm looking at BEAKL-15's layout and there are a few things I don't understand:
  • I assume AltGr is equivalent to the "Windows" key?
  • Since AltGr is a layer key, how does one do combinations like Windows+L (to lock the screen)?
  • Looking at http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/kla3/#/config, how do I map entries like "u:2196" to a key I actually recognize (maybe those, in particular, are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn)?

1. What keyboard do you use? AltGr is the right hand side Alt key, not the Windows key. Though some US keyboards may not have it I suppose.
2. I guess Den is using u:2196 to represent "Home". Next one is End, etc, as you suggest.

We use some of those ideas on keyboard-layout-editor.com , see the keyboard-layout-editor icons under "character picker".

Hope that helps :-)

itypeonkeyboards

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1617 on: 2019-Jun-01 16:57 »
1. What keyboard do you use? AltGr is the right hand side Alt key, not the Windows key. Though some US keyboards may not have it I suppose.

Thanks for the quick reply!

I currently use a Kinesis Advantage (Dvorak) when I'm not using my laptops' keyboards and I like that it utilizes the thumbs. I'd like to build something more portable and hope to use it more universally on both Linux and OSX machines. I'm happy to learn a new mapping as I've done so before. Single-siding modifier keys (shift, control, alt) is a new wrinkle for me, but pretend-typing on a printed piece of paper suggests I can reach everything when modifying with the thumb.

I've never had a key combination using "alt" differentiate between left and right alt although since keys like the Windows key exist only on one side, shortcuts typically take that into consideration to avoid "unpressable" combinations; I need all of control/alt/windows keys but AltGr can't be both a Windows key and a layer key. If it's not a Windows key, then what's the expectation for shortcuts that require it?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1618 on: 2019-Jun-01 18:04 »
I currently use a Kinesis Advantage (Dvorak) when I'm not using my laptops' keyboards and I like that it utilizes the thumbs. I'd like to build something more portable and hope to use it more universally on both Linux and OSX machines. I'm happy to learn a new mapping as I've done so before. Single-siding modifier keys (shift, control, alt) is a new wrinkle for me, but pretend-typing on a printed piece of paper suggests I can reach everything when modifying with the thumb.

I've never had a key combination using "alt" differentiate between left and right alt although since keys like the Windows key exist only on one side, shortcuts typically take that into consideration to avoid "unpressable" combinations; I need all of control/alt/windows keys but AltGr can't be both a Windows key and a layer key. If it's not a Windows key, then what's the expectation for shortcuts that require it?

Does this help? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr_key

You might want to look at some of the alternate layouts on Ergodox/Kinesis form factors, to see your options or give you some ideas. Either directly in one of Den's KLA sites, or  at https://keyboard-design.com/internet-letter-layout-db.html .... just type ergodox in the "search" bar there to filter.  The page does not have the latest BEAKLs because I haven't gotten around to running the tests with them yet.... on the ToDo list.

Cheers, Ian


Den

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1619 on: 2019-Jun-02 01:34 »
On Kinesis, I reprogram the main right thumb key (was default Space) as Scroll Lock (which is useless to modern Windows users). This is an actual toggle so you can see on the keyboard indicator when the layer is toggled on or off. The entire BEAKL layout replacement is done as AutoHotkey script, so I can put any character any where and utilize Scroll Lock as its new purpose.

On Linux, I can choose Scroll Lock as a layer changer in the system settings under keyboard section. If it's not there, add it into the config files as an option.

mstacker

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1620 on: 2019-Jun-02 13:17 »
On Kinesis, I reprogram the main right thumb key (was default Space) as Scroll Lock (which is useless to modern Windows users). This is an actual toggle so you can see on the keyboard indicator when the layer is toggled on or off. The entire BEAKL layout replacement is done as AutoHotkey script, so I can put any character any where and utilize Scroll Lock as its new purpose.

On Linux, I can choose Scroll Lock as a layer changer in the system settings under keyboard section. If it's not there, add it into the config files as an option.

Den, out of curiosity,
1) have you ever tried to use the advantage layout configuration stuff to implement a BEAKL layout?
2) did it work?

I made a brief attempt to work with advantage layout editing stuff but could not figure out a way given the time. Instead, I've been using a pair of ergodox keyboards (1 at work, 1 at home), the massdrop infinity variety if memory serves, and QMK firmware. The keyboard works but could use physical improvements to suit my preferences.

On a related subject,
Have lots of parts for smaller viterbi keyboards laying around but got totally sidetracked in jan 2018 and remain so for the most part indefinitely. Last I remember, my thinking was key wells ‘felt’ best to me but... a two piece, split down the middle, ’ortholinear’ style keyboards were suitable so long as they had enough rows and columns (5 rows but enough columns to experiment with flat thumb clusters) . I had to modify thumb cluster on my ergodox. Was planning to try new arrangements. The flat ergodox is not ideal. I ended up having three ‘shift’ keys I out on the right to facilitate 4 layers in total. It works good enough. There is a better way to arrange the F-keys, arrows, non-alpha numeric, etc than the hap-hazard way Ive done it... but it works and Ive been able to do my job.

Since kinesis sells internal parts for advantage, so Im told, and you can purchase pcbs, controllers etc that can be used to replace the advantage’s guts them program using QMK firmware, et el, might try modifying my advantage that has been collecting dust at some point.

My Advantage reservations:
1) it would be nice if it was split in two down the middle, but not a deal breaker, yet.
2) would like a key well keyboard, like the advantage, dactyl manuform looks promising each half can be propped up on its side such that you are typing sideways.
3) the advantage is not ideal for portability. For example, kinda large to use in coffee ships (I have in the past.).

You guys are awesome because you’d likely just make your own if you felt the need, as I should. However, the worst enemy to greatness is something that is ‘good enough’ at least for the moment. My time is extremely limited and Im eating that up upping my game for work stuff. The overhead to grt into 3-D printing, prototype then maybe have a frame professionally printed is lots. It’s in my queue., but Im overwhelmed for the next 2-3 years min. Therefore, I've prioritized other items.

Bit of a mouth full.

Thanks brother.

Glad to see the progress. Ive been using BEAKL 9 now for ... not sure... at least like 18 months. It works in terms of ergonomics.

Many many thanks.

Matt

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1621 on: 2019-Jun-02 13:45 »
You guys are awesome because you’d likely just make your own if you felt the need, as I should. However, the worst enemy to greatness is something that is ‘good enough’ at least for the moment. My time is extremely limited and Im eating that up upping my game for work stuff. The overhead to grt into 3-D printing, prototype then maybe have a frame professionally printed is lots. It’s in my queue., but Im overwhelmed for the next 2-3 years min. Therefore, I've prioritized other items.

One of the "building guides" (think it was Jessie's) on the net says (admittedly a few years ago) that printing keys via 3D printing is not viable ... the tolerances are not good enough (at that point). Perhaps they have since improved, but likely you will need a high-end machine to be sure. I think it's the tolerances where the key fits on the switch.

I supposed for the "case" part of the keyboard it is not so critical.

I've got the guy in the back of my head nagging me again.... telling me I need to completely rethink the way keyboards are laid out. Not sure where that is going yet, will have to wait for the next bit of insight/inspiration to hit.
Will finally try and get my own first keyboard up and running by end of July.... things have been a bit hectic ever since last year January.

Cheers, Ian

mstacker

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1622 on: 2019-Jun-11 01:05 »
Will finally try and get my own first keyboard up and running by end of July.... things have been a bit hectic ever since last year January.

Cheers, Ian

How is that project coming, by the way? Sounds like you’ve almost got it.

Matt

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1623 on: 2019-Jun-11 03:25 »
How is that project coming, by the way? Sounds like you’ve almost got it.

The project manager (me) is useless.... :-)

The hardware is okay, not as pretty as I wanted but it always was "a prototype". Need to redo the firmware which will require some fiddling, planned for the school holidays starting next week.

I have an LED that is supposed to show the status of the Insert/Overwrite key, but not sure if the firmware can be made to toggle on that key, without getting confused by me also using it for copy-paste operations (Ctrl-insert and shift-insert).

Will report back in a few weeks assuming things work.

Then I will probably switch the layout from X6.4 to something like X7.1 or similar... early testing already showed some annoyances with the X6.4 layout.

Cheers, Ian

mstacker

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1624 on: 2019-Jun-14 16:22 »
The project manager (me) is useless.... :-)

Nah. It's just that you can only choose between 2 and 3 million goals to focus on at any given time. This is it more or less? <http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/samples/pkb.json>

Looks awesome. Interested to hear your input about how the overall feel, particularity the thumb keys.

Matt

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1625 on: 2019-Jun-14 17:25 »
Nah. It's just that you can only choose between 2 and 3 million goals to focus on at any given time. This is it more or less? <http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/samples/pkb.json>

Looks awesome. Interested to hear your input about how the overall feel, particularity the thumb keys.

That was the original plan. But dummy testing (printed life-size on A3 paper, stuck keys on with artist's temporary spray glue) showed the layout to have some issues, particularly all the thumb keys. Rethinking that led to the ErgoLinear layout.
Version I'm making is attached. Logical letter layout will probably need changing. I think also that the numpad in the middle, while theoretically a good idea (i.e. can be used by both left and right-handed people) is not really a good idea, since I am right-handed, so making it left-hand-friendly was pointless. Also the typing angle of the centre block contorts the wrist. So will probably revert to right-hand-side numpad, or copy Den and integrate it on a layer. Also thinking about a joystick or somesuch instead of the 4 arrow keys.

Which is why I think I said a few messages back that I need to rethink keyboards AGAIN.... :-) ... There must be a better way.

Attached pic has leather top which I then proceeded to damage while trying to enlarge a drill hole... so actual version will have a fibreboard top (because I had one cut at the same time as the other layers). I did have a perspex shiny black top which also got damaged. Some things I learn the hard way.... :-)

itypeonkeyboards

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1626 on: 2019-Jun-14 23:53 »
Does this help? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr_key

You might want to look at some of the alternate layouts on Ergodox/Kinesis form factors, to see your options or give you some ideas. Either directly in one of Den's KLA sites, or  at https://keyboard-design.com/internet-letter-layout-db.html .... just type ergodox in the "search" bar there to filter.  The page does not have the latest BEAKLs because I haven't gotten around to running the tests with them yet.... on the ToDo list.

Cheers, Ian

Sorry, late reply...

My goal is to build a keyboard as opposed to remapping my Kinesis (I'd like something more portable). But, I'm still not understanding -- as I understand it, AltGr is the layer key for the punctuation layer. If I were to build a keyboard exactly as it looks on http://www.shenafu.com/code/keyboard/beakl/index.php (or http://shenafu.com/code/keyboard/kla3/#/config), it doesn't look like I'd end up with a keyboard that has the (PC) Windows/(OS X) Control key (left of the left Alt on a PC keyboard, left of the left Option key on a Mac keyboard). Maybe I don't understand how layering works?

In any case, what I'm truly trying to understand is whether this layout has a Windows key (or a key I can use as a Windows key). By example, Windows-L locks my Linux laptop. On the BEAKL 15 keyboard, can I do this? If it's AltGr-L, wouldn't that result in a "^" key press, instead?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1627 on: 2019-Jun-15 03:33 »
In any case, what I'm truly trying to understand is whether this layout has a Windows key (or a key I can use as a Windows key). By example, Windows-L locks my Linux laptop. On the BEAKL 15 keyboard, can I do this? If it's AltGr-L, wouldn't that result in a "^" key press, instead?

Ah. Okay for KLA purposes that key usually is not included. I'm on Linux and I use the Left Windows key (Henceforth referred to as "OS Key") as a Compose key. If you're using it just to Lock your computer, it doesn't have to be in such a convenient spot.

If you look at the pic of my built keyboard above, you will see that the Escape key (top left) is now doing triple duty...

1. Esc (just press it)
2. "Menu" key ... what the RHS "Menu" key does on normal keyboard. This is on Shift-Esc.
3. OS Key ... what the LHS Windows key does on normal keyboard. This is on AtrGr-Esc.

If you look at more recent (laptop) keyboards, you will see that manufacturers are scaling back on these Microsoft additions to the standard layout, since most people don't use them.

For BEAKL layouts, you could use one of the unused keys. You get to choose where :-)

Hope that helps :-)

Cheers, Ian

Bruhdooh

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1628 on: 2019-Jun-16 21:28 »
Sadly I have to leave you folks as I went back to QWERTY. Just easier to type on, more accessible, and on top of that I am just plain faster and more accurate on it. Though I must say that the BEAKL layouts are very comfortable.

itypeonkeyboards

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1629 on: 2019-Jun-16 22:00 »
Ah. Okay for KLA purposes that key usually is not included. I'm on Linux and I use the Left Windows key (Henceforth referred to as "OS Key") as a Compose key. If you're using it just to Lock your computer, it doesn't have to be in such a convenient spot.

If you look at the pic of my built keyboard above, you will see that the Escape key (top left) is now doing triple duty...

1. Esc (just press it)
2. "Menu" key ... what the RHS "Menu" key does on normal keyboard. This is on Shift-Esc.
3. OS Key ... what the LHS Windows key does on normal keyboard. This is on AtrGr-Esc.

If you look at more recent (laptop) keyboards, you will see that manufacturers are scaling back on these Microsoft additions to the standard layout, since most people don't use them.

For BEAKL layouts, you could use one of the unused keys. You get to choose where :-)

Hope that helps :-)

Cheers, Ian

Sorry, I'm unsure what you mean by "Compose key", but per your keyboard, were you to wish to lock your screen, would you simultaneously ty AltGr+Esc+L? I use the OS key a lot, on both Linux (to move between virtual desktops, window resize, etc.) and OS X (cursor movement, etc.) for a lot of combinations. Almost all of the shortcuts (on both OSes) rely on the key being on the left, chord relative to the keys next to it, and assume arrow keys on the right (hence both utilizing OS+arrow keys for shortcuts); I doubt the key could effectively driven off anything other than a thumb, and it would need to be possible to match both OS's assumptions about where keys are.

I'll need to think about this some more -- I rarely use the mouse/track pad because most of what I need to do can be accomplished, using shortcuts, on the keyboard (and this is much faster, at least for me) and having an OS key is essential; I'm just not sure where I could effectively place it.

iandoug

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Capacitive touch keyboard
« Reply #1630 on: 2019-Jun-19 10:25 »
So I'm thinking about my poor fingers and how years of pressing keys are causing joint issues etc.

Then I get to thinking that maybe we don't need to press keys ... just touch them like capacitive buttons in a lift/elevator. And not like the old Atari 400 keyboard which was same idea but sucky, it was a membrane switch not capacitive. Apparently made that way to be peanut-butter-proof.

Initial search does not find right kind to replace switches... did find one that's about 1cm by 2cm for the switch-plus-circuit which I suppose could be made to work somehow, but it was a touch-for-on, touch-for-off which is not what I want.

Searching is made trickier by the fact that "capacitive keyboard switch" is an already-existing but different idea.

Something like this. They're dirt cheap. Way cheaper than conventional switch+keycap.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10Pcs-TTP223-Touch-Key-Switch-Module-Touching-Button-Capacitive-Switches-Self-Locking-No-Locking-Jog-2/32761802828.html

These are 15x11 mm which is smaller than 19x19 normal keycap.

Thoughts?

Or will the just-touch-not-press action be too weird?

Thanks, Ian

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1631 on: 2019-Jun-19 10:32 »
Sorry, I'm unsure what you mean by "Compose key", but per your keyboard, were you to wish to lock your screen, would you simultaneously ty AltGr+Esc+L?

Compose key: wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
more useful: https://fsymbols.com/keyboard/linux/compose/

I use KDE and alt-ctrl-l (left alt) locked the screen. It's not something I use much, and when I did I would right-click on Desktop and select Lock Screen (and I see it says the shortcut is alt-ctrl-l).

Keyboards are personal, make it work like you need it to :-)

Cheers, Ian

itypeonkeyboards

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1632 on: 2019-Jun-19 23:08 »
Compose key: wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
more useful: https://fsymbols.com/keyboard/linux/compose/

I use KDE and alt-ctrl-l (left alt) locked the screen. It's not something I use much, and when I did I would right-click on Desktop and select Lock Screen (and I see it says the shortcut is alt-ctrl-l).

Keyboards are personal, make it work like you need it to :-)

Cheers, Ian

Huh. all this time I didn't know such a thing existed! I've been using Ctrl+Shift+u and typing in the unicode value of stuff I need, like 00b0 for the degree symbol (°).

Also, it finally dawned on me that the keyboard picture you sent me was of an X7.1 variant. I understand from other reading I've done that it's, effectively, intended to win the analyzer, and X7.1H does for pretty much everything I throw at it that I've typed at some point. I like that it solves my "thumb/OS key problem" with BEAKL by reverting to pinkies for those keys so I can easily add the OS key and the up/down/left/right/pgup/pgdn in the bottom row and have it be similar enough to QWERTY such that the OS's shortcuts are type-able. If you don't mind me asking questions:
  • Lowercase h on the thumb with AltGr... Does this "work"? "th" and "he" are the two most common bigrams ("th" is a nice roll on Dvorak), does it work in practice to require two keys for "h"?
  • The layout's "pairing" of <>, {}, (), and [] is inconsistent and almost haphazard -- does this matter in practice (once you commit it to muscle memory), or is my suspicion that it'd be annoying because you can't just move index & middle to left/right and type them both at the same time valid?
  • What's your general experience with/opinion of the mapping? Does its scoring well translate to a more pleasant typing experience? Have you a BEAKL keyboard or other mapping you can compare it to?
  • From my high school days as a cashier, I'm curious about 0 in particular on your numpad as this is normally a thumb key
  • How'd you get your keycaps "lettered"? I'd just assumed I'd go all blank because there'd be no way to accurately letter it, anyway, but you seem to have gotten a custom lettering.

Thanks again for your patient tolerance of me & my questions!

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1633 on: 2019-Jun-20 02:34 »
Huh. all this time I didn't know such a thing existed! I've been using Ctrl+Shift+u and typing in the unicode value of stuff I need, like 00b0 for the degree symbol (°).

Also, it finally dawned on me that the keyboard picture you sent me was of an X7.1 variant. I understand from other reading I've done that it's, effectively, intended to win the analyzer, and X7.1H does for pretty much everything I throw at it that I've typed at some point. I like that it solves my "thumb/OS key problem" with BEAKL by reverting to pinkies for those keys so I can easily add the OS key and the up/down/left/right/pgup/pgdn in the bottom row and have it be similar enough to QWERTY such that the OS's shortcuts are type-able. If you don't mind me asking questions:
  • Lowercase h on the thumb with AltGr... Does this "work"? "th" and "he" are the two most common bigrams ("th" is a nice roll on Dvorak), does it work in practice to require two keys for "h"?
  • The layout's "pairing" of <>, {}, (), and [] is inconsistent and almost haphazard -- does this matter in practice (once you commit it to muscle memory), or is my suspicion that it'd be annoying because you can't just move index & middle to left/right and type them both at the same time valid?
  • What's your general experience with/opinion of the mapping? Does its scoring well translate to a more pleasant typing experience? Have you a BEAKL keyboard or other mapping you can compare it to?
  • From my high school days as a cashier, I'm curious about 0 in particular on your numpad as this is normally a thumb key
  • How'd you get your keycaps "lettered"? I'd just assumed I'd go all blank because there'd be no way to accurately letter it, anyway, but you seem to have gotten a custom lettering.

Okay, I find the combination of EurKEY layout (https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/start.html)(also available for Windows...) plus Compose key to take care of most cases without resorting to a character picker. I've added a few others that I use regularly to my  ~/.XCompose  file (you may need to restart your desktop for those to be picked up, I think KDE does it automagically). The EurKEY layout should be an option already under your keyboard layouts, so you won't need to install it.

As for the layout, that is X6.4 or thereabouts (not X7.1), 6.4 was designed to win previous version of Den's analyzer, I have some issues with that layout. I have not used it much but don't think it's ideal. I also have doubts about the h on the thumb, that's one of the things that got addressed with the Seelpy/Essie variants. So I can't answer questions about how practical the h, or the brackets are, yet. Will advise, hopefully in a few weeks.

The numpad was designed strictly in terms of "most used digits are easiest to type". We do not type all digits with equal frequency, blame things like dates or dialling codes, which overload 0,1,2. Also hundreds/thousands etc.

I had the keycaps laser-engraved, they are PBT keycaps from Signature Plastics, they DO engrave (actually 'burn') fine, so don't believe what it says on Deskthority. You just need to use the correct laser. Downside is that there is a cost, I paid R8/keycap a few years back (that's 0.56USD at current rates, would have been more dollars back then). But still, if you have 100 keycaps then just that alone is the price of several cheapie keyboards.

My memory says there was another variant that put the h in a better place but can't think of it now. Will poke around and revert if I find it.

Cheers, Ian
« Last Edit: 2019-Jun-20 02:38 by iandoug »

antmespo

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1634 on: 2019-Jun-28 14:38 »
I just came across this and am a little confused with the setup. How could one adapt the beakl-15 matrix to a 5X12 grid keyboard such as the preonic?

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1635 on: 2019-Jun-30 11:42 »
I just came across this and am a little confused with the setup. How could one adapt the beakl-15 matrix to a 5X12 grid keyboard such as the preonic?

Maybe Den can give you a better answer, but from my point of view I would first take a step back and ask if the Preonic is the best form factor for a keyboard.

Also note that although the Matrix style is shown in a slab format, it does not actually have to look like that. It's just easier for KLA purposes to make it in a slab, because KLA is not concerned with "angle of wrists", just finger movements.

In the real world you probably want a split, angled keyboard.

With 60 keys, you probably could fit Beakl15 on, using layers if necessary.

Hope that helps :-)

Cheers, Ian

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1636 on: 2019-Jul-07 13:16 »
All the ways to find a better layout lead here.
Hello, everyone.
Please tell me how to change the configuration file to calculate a one-handed layout in one of the programs. I know the "opt" program and "keyboard layout optimizer", which was also discussed in this topic.
I need to change the configuration file so that I can place all the most convenient letters and combinations on the first layer and minimize switching between layers.

I've designed a one-handed(right-handed) keyboard with 18 keys for letters and a few of the most common punctuation characters.
That is, 18 keys should contain all letters of the alphabet and a couple of the most common punctuation characters in 2 layers. These 18 keys are divided into 4 fingers.
The second layer is activated by pressing the SPACE key, which is at the home thumb position. Capital letters are printed with a short hold of the same key (auto-shift qmk option).

Thank you.




iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1637 on: 2019-Jul-07 13:30 »
I've designed a one-handed(right-handed) keyboard with 18 keys for letters and a few of the most common punctuation characters.
That is, 18 keys should contain all letters of the alphabet and a couple of the most common punctuation characters in 2 layers. These 18 keys are divided into 4 fingers.
The second layer is activated by pressing the SPACE key, which is at the home thumb position. Capital letters are printed with a short hold of the same key (auto-shift qmk option).

Interesting idea, which punctuations are you including?

I’m struggling to see how you are going to minimize "same finger" usage if you put all the letters on one hand. You probably need e, t, a, o, i, n on different fingers.... and maybe r and s as well. And h can't be on e or t.

Cheers, Ian

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1638 on: 2019-Jul-07 15:48 »
Thank you, Ian.
From the punctuation symbols on the two alphabetic layers I would like to see 3 punctuation marks: a point, a comma and an apostrophe. Other symbols can be placed on other layers, it is not such essential question.

Of course, the most critical problem is "same finger repetition". I don't have a specific strategy yet, at first I would like to try to generate at least some sort of layout. But your advice should also be applied immediately if possible: "e, t, a, o, i, n, r, s" - these eight most common letters can be placed on the first layer and the result can be seen.

But where do you put the extra 26(abc)+3(punc)-18(keys)=12 characters in the configuration file? Here is just an example of a part of a configuration file with 18 symbols:
Code: [Select]
      Name   ξ  ρ       x  y    f   g   α   s # Obere Zeile/upper row
Taste  AD06   8  1    6.25  1   +2   -   6   + # Z
Taste  AD07   9  1    7.25  1   +2   -   3,5 + # U
Taste  AD08  10  1    8.25  1   +3   -   3.5 + # I
Taste  AD09  11  1    9.25  1   +4   -   3.5 + # O
Taste  AD10  12  1   10.25  1   +5   -   5.2 + # P
Taste  AD11  13  1   11.25  1   +5   -   5.0 + # Ü

#      Name   ξ  ρ       x  y    f   g   α   s # Mittlere Zeile/middle row
Taste  AC06   8  2    6.50  2   +2   -   3   + # H
Taste  AC07   9  2    7.50  2   +2   +   0   + # J
Taste  AC08  10  2    8.50  2   +3   +   0   + # K
Taste  AC09  11  2    9.50  2   +4   +   0   + # L
Taste  AC10  12  2   10.50  2   +5   +   1   + # Ö
Taste  AC11  13  2   11.50  2   +5   -   5   + # Ä
#Taste BKSL  14  2   12.50  2   +5   -   6   + # $

#      Name   ξ  ρ       x  y    f   g   α   s # Untere Zeile/lower row
Taste  AB06   8  3    7.00  3   +2   -   4   + # N
Taste  AB07   9  3    8.00  3   +2   -   5   + # M
Taste  AB08  10  3    9.00  3   +3   -   5   + # ,
Taste  AB09  11  3   10.00  3   +4   -   5   + # .
Taste  AB10  12  3   11.00  3   +5   -   5   + # -
Taste  AB11  13  3   12.00  3   +5   -   7   + # S

#      Name   ξ  ρ       x  y    f   g   α   s # Leerzeichenzeile/space bar row
Taste  SPCE   7  4    7.00  4   +1   +   0     # Leerzeichen/space
ShiftR RTSH   8  4    8.00  4   +1   -   1     # Shift rechts/right

I also tried to add here the Shift and Space bar to make the program work.

Where do I put the remaining characters: on the same hand or on the other hand? What value should I put on "Hand alternations", "Double strokes" "Same finger repetitions." "Adjacent finger strokes" options and others?

Thank you very much.

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1639 on: 2019-Jul-07 16:22 »
But where do you put the extra 26(abc)+3(punc)-18(keys)=12 characters in the configuration file? Here is just an example of a part of a configuration file with 18 symbols:

Where do I put the remaining characters: on the same hand or on the other hand? What value should I put on "Hand alternations", "Double strokes" "Same finger repetitions." "Adjacent finger strokes" options and others?

Sorry, Den will have to advise.... I have not played with Opt yet.

(Mainly because I thought it was too complicated... :-) ... guess I shouldn't be so lazy about figuring it out.)

Cheers, Ian

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1640 on: 2019-Jul-07 17:17 »
I hope Den comes over and tells me the settings. I don't have anyone else to ask, I've asked this question in the official opt group, but I haven't received an answer yet.  Opt is a very powerful program, but my task requires a special configuration.
Ian, thank you very much for your help. For now I will try to read the theory.

Den

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1641 on: 2019-Jul-07 18:25 »
Opt defaults to 32 keys. You need to recompile to accept different number of keys. The PDF file that comes with it has instructions for parameters to use during compile.

The number of Taste lines and Zeichen lines must match. Leave out everything that goes on another layer.

Also the program always expects both left and right shift (ShiftL, ShiftR) to be present in the config file, one assigned to each hand.

It is up to you for how much penalty you deem fit. The values for "Same finger repetitions" "Adjacent finger strokes" I have quite high--especially for pinkies can be orders of magnitudes higher. "Hand alternations/repetitions" shouldn't matter for 1-Hand.   

This is what I used for 1-Hand@12 Keys :

https://bitbucket.org/Shenafu/beakl/src/master/opt/beakl%201Hand%20L0%20x1.cfg


Den

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1642 on: 2019-Jul-07 18:45 »
I just came across this and am a little confused with the setup. How could one adapt the beakl-15 matrix to a 5X12 grid keyboard such as the preonic?

Some have already implemented BEAKL on QMK firmware. You can borrow and review their files from GIT repos, etc. For starters, try this:

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/3b2a484a5b9b0ddc2e110d5bc40f249ee62352d6/keyboards/miuni32/keymaps/ki/keymap.c

That uses older BEAKL layout, but should easily adapt to any version.

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1643 on: 2019-Jul-07 23:12 »
Den, thank you so much for the config file. I liked the "beakl 1Hand L0 x1" layout itself. If you share the following layers, I will use it in my keyboard.

But I also need to create a layout for another non-Latin language. Therefore, the following questions arise:
1) How do you allocate letters to layers? Why are these 12 letters and punctuation letters on L0? Do you use some algorithm or are these combinations selected manually?  Maybe you have chosen the most frequent combinations of letters? But then and in the following layers there should be compatibility inside the layer? It's not quite clear.
2) There is a question about the composition of the corpus. What size corpus do you use? Which texts do you use: classical literary, official texts or maybe dump of some twitter channels?
3) In what proportions are penalties calculated for each finger?  It is clear that the penalty on the home position is zero. But what proportion of the penalties are imposed on the other keys? What is the number of repetitions you specify with the `-i` option?

Thank you so much, Den. I've tried to ask elsewhere, but I've only got help here.
« Last Edit: 2019-Jul-07 23:24 by m2genie »

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1644 on: 2019-Jul-08 04:08 »
But I also need to create a layout for another non-Latin language. Therefore, the following questions arise:
1) How do you allocate letters to layers? Why are these 12 letters and punctuation letters on L0? Do you use some algorithm or are these combinations selected manually?  Maybe you have chosen the most frequent combinations of letters? But then and in the following layers there should be compatibility inside the layer? It's not quite clear.
2) There is a question about the composition of the corpus. What size corpus do you use? Which texts do you use: classical literary, official texts or maybe dump of some twitter channels?
3) In what proportions are penalties calculated for each finger?  It is clear that the penalty on the home position is zero. But what proportion of the penalties are imposed on the other keys? What is the number of repetitions you specify with the `-i` option?

I can give my 2c worth since I have a bit of experience with these things. You're basically asking for a crash course in "The art of keyboard layout design", so here goes. :-)

The general idea is to put the most common letters on the home fingers, with the MOST common on the strongest fingers. (From Den's point of view, to Minimise Effort.)

Then we arrange the rest in decreasing order of frequency in successively "worse" spots.
For two hands, we try to ensure alternation of hands. This, by bitter experience, means vowels on left hand and major consonants on right hand. We're not entirely sure why, it just works best that way, regardless of language and form factor. May be related to the Enter key being typically on right hand.

The above pre-supposes a) knowing the letter frequency of the language (and knowing common bigrams and trigrams also helps) and having some understanding of how the language "works".

Getting the letter frequency is itself a challenge, for example, there are subtle differences between British English and American English in terms of frequency, but whether it's enough to affect the design, I don't know.

The default samples that come loaded with KLA are actually pretty bad. Which is why we developed our own corpus. My initial approach was to get a "broad selection" and hope that they balanced each other out, but they don't actually. So I wrote a program that analysed the texts (using different text-matching algos) to find texts that best matched English letter frequency. Most texts don't. Also had issues with how these algos worked (they didn't measure exactly what I needed) so ended up with a custom one.

I was involved in keyboard layouts for two African languages which have complex "tone" indications... these tone marks get used more than most letters, and this complicates the layout design. Also, being in West Africa, there is a lot of French used, so we needed to worry about making it easy to type accented French letters as well... so this was quite a challenge.

They the had issues with the corpus, since there was not much available in those languages. For one, they used a stack of old newspapers, and for the other, all they had was a book of the bible. Both collections brought their own problems, the newspapers required a LOT of clean-up to be usable, and still suffered with what was probably a very non-standard letter frequency after that.

In general, for English, we have tried different approaches, including raiding Project Gutenberg, twitter streams, assorted other texts like lyrics, quotations, etc. Currently I'm getting the best success (occasionally) by cherry-picking some authors online who write well, and frequently produce texts that match the letter frequency well. But not always. I’m also very focused on the "top 11" characters because the letter frequency falls off rapidly after the first few, so if you get those right, then you're well on your way to a good solution. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law  which talks about words, but letter frequency follows same pattern).

Also it's almost impossible to get a natural language text that uses every character on the keyboard, so you will need "other stuff" to optimise those characters. We tried assorted program code, but frequency is very language-dependent and it's hard to find something that works in all cases. So you need to compromise.

Regarding question 3, that's Den's domain... we don't always agree on how he weights things. There isn't a lot of research on "relative finger strength" or "relative finger flexibility" etc so it's pretty much trial and error balanced with "how does the resulting layout feel when you use it".....

FWIW I've attached my latest English texts analysis, in "tab-separated" format for a spreadsheet program, so you can see how letter frequency varies amongst texts. These are my current "best". It's sorted on "FreqMatch" column (my custom score,  lower is better), the "Top 11" is a score out of 66, higher is better). 66 means the first 11 chars are in the correct frequency order.

For the "similarity" score, the higher the better. FreqMatch and Similarity consider all the characters, Top 11 only the first 11.

Cheers, Ian


iandoug

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Re: Capacitive touch keyboard
« Reply #1645 on: 2019-Jul-08 15:54 »
Then I get to thinking that maybe we don't need to press keys ... just touch them like capacitive buttons in a lift/elevator. And not like the old Atari 400 keyboard which was same idea but sucky, it was a membrane switch not capacitive. Apparently made that way to be peanut-butter-proof.

Something like this. They're dirt cheap. Way cheaper than conventional switch+keycap.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10Pcs-TTP223-Touch-Key-Switch-Module-Touching-Button-Capacitive-Switches-Self-Locking-No-Locking-Jog-2/32761802828.html

These are 15x11 mm which is smaller than 19x19 normal keycap.

I ordered 10 of those switches to see how well they work. Somewhere between China and here at the moment. Then has to get through customs and post office without going walkabout.

In the mean time, the Germans have something (although our ideas of "ergonomic" are clearly different)

https://www.washable-keyboards.com/portfolio-view/cleankeys-ck4-with-touch-surface/

Aimed at medical market so won't be cheap.

Actually have started pondering whether a "Chorded keyboard" with only 5 or 6 switches per hand may work... no fingers flying around, and just touch (not press) the capacitive switches ....

May need more than 5 or 6 for function keys, navigation, etc. I'll let the subconscious work on it.....

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1646 on: 2019-Jul-11 19:38 »
I’m also very focused on the "top 11" characters because the letter frequency falls off rapidly after the first few, so if you get those right, then you're well on your way to a good solution.
In my case, in Russian (Cyrillic) there are no such sharp frequency differences.
Here is the official frequency:
Code: [Select]
rank v/c letter number of uses frequency
1 vo о 55414481 10.97%
2 vo е 42691213 8.45%
3 vo а 40487008 8.01%
4 vo и 37153142 7.35%
5 con н 33838881 6.70%
6 con т 31620970 6.26%
7 con с 27627040 5.47%
8 con р 23916825 4.73%
9 con в 22930719 4.54%
10 con л 22230174 4.40%
11 con к 17653469 3.49%
12 con м 16203060 3.21%
13 con д 15052118 2.98%
14 con п 14201572 2.81%
15 vo у 13245712 2.62%
16 vo я 10139085 2.01%
17 vo ы 9595941         1.90%
18 con ь 8784613         1.74%
19 con г 8564640         1.70%
20 con з 8329904         1.65%
21 con б 8051767         1.59%
22 con ч 7300193         1.44%
23 con й 6106262         1.21%
24 con х 4904176         0.97%
25 con ж 4746916         0.94%
26 con ш 3678738         0.73%
27 vo ю 3220715         0.64%
28 con ц 2438807         0.48%
29 con щ 1822476         0.36%
30 vo э 1610107         0.32%
31 con ф 1335747         0.26%
32 con ъ 185452         0.04%
#33 vo ё 184928          0.04% 
# This letter is replaced by the letter е. So it is fair
#  to give this frequency to the letter е.
I have found a corpus of Russian language which on ~95+% coincides with official statistics on frequency of letters. In the first half of the output there are no inconsistencies at all, in the second half there are several rearrangements on the neighboring positions. The size of this corpus is 20 mb.

There are 33 letters in the Russian alphabet, but one can be ignored. The result is 32 letters. To fit them all on two layers I need 16 keys plus two for a point and a comma. The result is 18 keys as in my scheme.

Now I need to split the alphabet into 2 parts first. I tried to get the frequency of letters from the united file of bigrams and trigrams, but got the same result as in the general frequency. By the way, machining the corpus with capital letters gave almost identical results as if all the letters in the corpus were lowercase.

So how do you advise to split the alphabet? Should I just take the first 16 letters then?
And the same for the English alphabet. There are 26 letters and an apostrophe in the English alphabet. That is, on the main layer I need to place from 11 to 16 letters (16+11=27). What combination of letters on the first layer will you advise in this case?
Also the problem with distribution of efforts is not solved. I will take as a basis a configuration file for Den's twelve-key keyboard "beakl 1Hand L0 x1.cfg", but I need to distribute the effort on six more keys then.

Thank you so much for your help. I'm attaching the best opensource corpus of Russian for your collection. Source: opencorpora.org . License: GNU General Public License v2.0 .
« Last Edit: 2019-Jul-11 20:19 by m2genie »

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1647 on: 2019-Jul-12 03:50 »
In my case, in Russian (Cyrillic) there are no such sharp frequency differences.
Here is the official frequency:

I see the list on https://www.sttmedia.com/characterfrequency-russian differs a little. (found as "featured result" with basic Google search).

This list indicates a possible split between P and K (or whatever the Cyrillic version is)... say around the 4% mark.

I'm surprised that the first four are all vowels... that must complicate the layout a lot, because getting a left-right balance is immediately affected. Maybe my opinion of "vowels on left" doesn't apply to Cyrillic languages :-)

I'll take another closer look later.

Cheers, Ian

iandoug

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1648 on: 2019-Jul-12 03:55 »
I see the list on https://www.sttmedia.com/characterfrequency-russian differs a little. (found as "featured result" with basic Google search).

Not sure I trust his frequencies, the English one is wrong... looks like he compiled his own frequencies from a limited number of sources (as opposed to, for example, the Brown Corpus for English).

m2genie

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Re: Balanced Keyboard Layout
« Reply #1649 on: 2019-Jul-12 04:20 »
Not sure I trust his frequencies, the English one is wrong... looks like he compiled his own frequencies from a limited number of sources (as opposed to, for example, the Brown Corpus for English).

No, ergonomic layouts in Russian are made up with vowels and consonants being on different halves of the keyboard.

In English there is already a successful implementation of one-handed layout, called Frogpad.

But I don't have space for a dot and a comma on the thumbcluster as they do.

/* LO
,------------------------------------.
|    F   |   A   |    R    |    W  |   P     |     
|------+------+------+------+------+
|   O   |    E   |    H    |    T   |   D    |
|------+------+------+------+------+
|    U   |    I    |    N   |     S  |     Y   |
`------+------+------+------+-------'
         |     ,    |    .     |                   
         `---------------'
/* L1
,------------------------------------.
|        |     '    |   B     |   M   |    J    |     
|------+------+------+------+------+
|   Q   |     Z  |    L    |   C    |    V   |
|------+------+------+------+------+
|         |         |    K   |   G    |    X    |
`------+------+------+------+-------'
          |    ,    |     .    |                   
          `--------------'



Right-handed.

 

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